ScouterPaul 11 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Neil - I was aware of the boy who has been moved up a grade or home schooled who might technically be eligible to join. Here is something that I have pondered. I am the Advancement Chair and my understanding of the BOR is that it isn't a test but a process to insure that the youth has done the work (this is just one of the BOR goals). How do "Eagle Mill Troops" who hold merit badge classes during meetings and campouts justify their program. If I as a BOR participant have a Scout who earned 5 merit badges and I ask him what he gained by calling the merit badge counselors to make arrangements and his answer is I didn't have to because I earned them all during Troop meetings. Has this Scout done the work? Did he get a Blue Card and ask the SM to sign it? Did he get a list of Counselors from the SM? Did he call and make arrangements? Or were all these details done for him? My belief is that the Scout hasn't done the work - but is it his fault and if not should he be penalized? What are your thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
EagleInKY 14 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Paul - While I'm not standing in support of "Eagle Mill" troops, I don't think you can be as bold as saying the Scout hasn't earned the rank. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the requirement that says a scout has to do the legwork to set things up with his MB counselor. Presumably, a Scout could only work on Merit Badges at Summer Camp. Over a period of a 3-4 years, he could complete the requirements for Eagle Merit Badges without ever arranging for a MB Counselor or earning a MB in a troop meeting. While it certainly fair to ask the question "is the Scout getting the full value of the program?", I do not believe you can say that he did not earn the Merit Badges, or the respective ranks. Link to post Share on other sites
ScouterPaul 11 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Eagle, I probably didn't phrase my post correctly. I feel that the Scout in this case didn't do the work, but once the Counselor signs the blue card then the Scout has earned the merit badge. This in and of itself would not keep the Scout from earning the rank. I think I would be concerned if I felt that he hadn't done any of the work on any of the rank requirements. On page 187 of the Hanbook it states the following: When you have decided on a merit badge you would like to earn, follow these steps: 1. Obtain from your Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application..... 2. Along with another Scout, relative, or a friend, set up and attend your first appointment with the merit badge counselor..... 3. Complete the requirements..... Maybe I'm being to strict but this sure doesn't sound like "show up at the troop meeting and you will earn your ____ merit badge." These steps are also outlined in the Advancement Committe Policies and Procedures. I debate these types of issues with myself constantly so I appreciate they thoughts and opinions of fellow Scouters. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2788 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 >>1. Obtain from your Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application..... 2. Along with another Scout, relative, or a friend, set up and attend your first appointment with the merit badge counselor..... 3. Complete the requirements..... Maybe I'm being to strict but this sure doesn't sound like "show up at the troop meeting and you will earn your ____ merit badge." Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 "They are not concerned about setting an example, just helping scouts earn a lot of badges." Yet another example of how it is all about numbers and not quality. Link to post Share on other sites
EagleInKY 14 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I don't disagree with you Paul. And I have to admit to being guilty of making it too easy on boys as well. That's something I'm trying to work on myself. Back to my question, does that mean Summer Camp MBs are not valid? (Not being argumentative, just trying to get insight). -John Link to post Share on other sites
nldscout 18 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sturgen I tried what you said, called the scout office. They have no clue who you are. so..... Link to post Share on other sites
ScouterPaul 11 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Eagle Merit Badges earned during summer camp are valid (I don't always feel that the instruction is top notch). The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures outline the requirements for Summer Camp advancement. It clearly states that the local Council's advancement committee is responsible for setting the procedures and that they must include the four processes for advancement - learning, testing, reviewing and recognition. There are also specific guidelines for Camp Merit Badge Counselors. The National Executive Board's policy statement on merit badge counseling states the following: "Group instruction and orientation are encouraged where special facilities and expert personnel make this most practical, or when Scouts are dependent on only a few counselors for assistance." Many of the badges offered during summer camp fulfill this statement. It is my belief that Merit Badge classes held during Troop meetings violate these procedures. The Advancement section on group instruction of merit badges states the following: "In harmony with this policy, a troop or team may use merit badge counselors i unit meetings. The merit badge counselor can make a presentation covering the highlights of a merit badge subject...." I feel that the meeting time can be used more productively. Paul Link to post Share on other sites
Chippewa29 13 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 I've personally seen Scouts get their Eagle at 13 and continue to have very active and productive Scouting careers until the "age out" at 18. I've also seen Scouts earn their Eagle early (13 or 14) that totally lose focus and becoming a bad example for younger Scouts. A lot depends on what the focus of the troop's program (and also the Scout's priorities). If the troop emphasizes advancement for the sake of advancement, then the Scouts will see the troop as only a place to add the Eagle rank to their college resume. If the troop emphasizes character building and having a great experience (you know, the actual aims of the BSA), then they will continue to stay active even after they earn their Eagle. For my self, I made it from Arrow of Light to Life in 16 months (minimum time back in the mid-80's). I did all the work myself and my troop may have done one merit badge at troop meetings. I (along with a few other Scouts in my troop) was very motivated and I didn't have any problem working on merit badges on my own to earn them faster. I took 62 months to reach Eagle from there. During the time I was a Life Scout, I went to three Jamborees, became a Vigil Honor member of the OA, and had countless wonderful experiences. I stayed involved in the program because of the experiences I had and the friends I met, not the badges I earned. In the twenty year history of my troop, we've three alums remain active after turning 18. Of those three, I am the only one that got his Eagle. The other two stayed in until they were 18 but never got the work done. However, they loved the experiences they had and wanted to give back. The other twelve Eagles in our troop's history went off to college and were never active again. If a Scout can earn his Eagle at age 13 while doing the work himself, enjoying the experiences along the way, and acquiring the traits we normally associate with an Eagle Scout, more power to him. Its not mine or anyone else's place to judge that. Different people are ready for different things at different points in their lives. Had I become an Eagle at 13, I probably wouldn't have appreciated it as much as I did getting it later on. Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 I think the previous three posts contained excellent information. Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Chippewa29 said: "Had I become an Eagle at 13, I probably wouldn't have appreciated it as much as I did getting it later on." I think I agree. I don't know that earning the rank at 15, 16, or 17 feels like, but my Eagle Court of Honor is only a vague memory to me. I also have to deal with how I feel when I see this topic pop up every few months. Earning the rank of Eagle Scout is earning the rank of Eagle, regardless of the age it is achieved. If so many got the Eagle Badge without really earning it, do you honestly think the rank of Eagle would enjoy the level of respect shown to it in American society today? DS Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 " If so many got the Eagle Badge without really earning it, do you honestly think the rank of Eagle would enjoy the level of respect shown to it in American society today?" A better question would be how much respect will it enjoy in 20 years. Link to post Share on other sites
purcelce 11 Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 " If so many got the Eagle Badge without really earning it, do you honestly think the rank of Eagle would enjoy the level of respect shown to it in American society today?" Example of Eagle Respect. I proudly display my Eagle Certificate along with all my military plaques, certificates, etc in my office. People are always saying "Oh your an Eagle Scout? Wow! " Had a one person in the office about 6 months ago that congratulated me. I got my Eagle 22 years ago. I believe people will hold Eagle in high esteem 20 years from now. Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 20 years ago, I didn't think that you'd be able to buy homes wired for Gigabit Ethernet. Link to post Share on other sites
purcelce 11 Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 "20 years ago, I didn't think that you'd be able to buy homes wired for Gigabit Ethernet. " 20 years ago I didn't know what Gigabit Ethernet was.... Link to post Share on other sites
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