School SafeRides program stalls due to religion

[Gonzo1 10]

Gern,

I assumed that not believing in creation meant not believing in God. I don't believe man crept out of the water and onto land.

 

Otherwise, a non-verbal reponse:

(Shoulder shrug and facial smirk)

[evmori 11]

Evmori,

Just a side note, if there was a fire at a church, is the fire department going to respond? That would be using taxpayer dollars at a religious institution.

 

BTW, I still don't buy Levi's and Docker's, but that's another discussion.

 

Gonzo,

 

I am on your side in this debate! And I don't buy Dockers or Levi's for the same reason you don't!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

Attempting to get back on topic:

As I understand the issue, a very useful program was created to provide safe rides. Nice. However, anyone who was gay or atheist was not allowed to volunteer to help. If anyone can explain how safe operation of a vehicle depends on sexual orientation or religious belief, I'd like to hear it. To me, THIS is the ethical problem. There is a social need and a good idea to help meet that need. But some volunteers are not allowed to provide the service for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the need OR the service.

Forget the constitution and the merits of home schooling...this is just wrong.

[evmori 11]

As I understand the issue, a very useful program was created to provide safe rides. Nice. However, anyone who was gay or atheist was not allowed to volunteer to help. If anyone can explain how safe operation of a vehicle depends on sexual orientation or religious belief, I'd like to hear it. To me, THIS is the ethical problem. There is a social need and a good idea to help meet that need. But some volunteers are not allowed to provide the service for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the need OR the service.

Forget the constitution and the merits of home schooling...this is just wrong.

 

So you want the BSA to compromise it's ethics to include anyone? What if a convicted counterfeiter wanted to volunteer? How about if someone asks you to compromise your ethics, packsaddle? Is that OK?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

So Ed, does this mean you think that public schools should ignore their ethics (and the law, too)?

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

If a convicted counterfeiter wanted to volunteer and has paid his debt to society, why wouldnt you use him?

[funscout 11]

I'm slow in returning Dan Kroh's answers, but here goes:

 

I wouldn't say I felt a "calling" to be a Christian. In order to go to heaven, people need to make a conscious choice to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Just "feeling called" to be a Christian isn't enough. As a human being, I struggle daily with trying to live like a Christian. It isn't easy! I have to make choices every day. If only it were so easy as to simply be a calling...

 

I don't know very many atheists, but the few that I do know would laugh if any one supposed they felt "called" to be an atheist. They have explained to me in a factual way, not a "feeling" way, why they don't believe in God.

 

Dan, I understand what you mean by the majority not really "getting" what it's like to be discriminated against. I know I don't have very many situations at all, where I am left out, so it is harder for me to "get it." The only situation that comes to mind is when I was in High School, and didn't believe in under age drinking. ALL of my friends went to the drinking parties, while I stayed at home. That was my choice. Sure I felt lonely, but I didn't feel discriminated against because they insisted on having alcohol at their parties. I didn't feel that they should leave the alcohol out of the parties, for MY sake. I certainly wished they would, but never expected them to cater to me, the minority. Yes, I was a total nerd and "goody two shoes". My sister used to say I was so sweet, I gave people cavities!

[DanKroh 11]

"I wouldn't say I felt a "calling" to be a Christian. In order to go to heaven, people need to make a conscious choice to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Just "feeling called" to be a Christian isn't enough. As a human being, I struggle daily with trying to live like a Christian. It isn't easy! I have to make choices every day. If only it were so easy as to simply be a calling..."

 

I'm trying to divorce the decision from the motivation behind the decision. Yes, you made a decision, but what was that decision based on? As I said, every person of religion that I know based that decision on a belief, a feeling, that the deity (or deities) of that religion were real, and were "calling" them to follow. Personally, I think if anyone tried to follow any religion without that deep down in their soul belief, then they are probably just fooling themselves with a "fake it 'til you make it" philosophy.

 

"I don't know very many atheists, but the few that I do know would laugh if any one supposed they felt "called" to be an atheist. They have explained to me in a factual way, not a "feeling" way, why they don't believe in God."

 

Yes, which is why I said that the atheists' "epiphany" involves recognizing a *lack* of calling. Yes, there are many facts that they feel support their belief (in a lack of deity), but it still all comes down to a belief, a feeling that the universe is a certain way.

 

"Dan, I understand what you mean by the majority not really "getting" what it's like to be discriminated against. I know I don't have very many situations at all, where I am left out, so it is harder for me to "get it." The only situation that comes to mind is when I was in High School, and didn't believe in under age drinking. ALL of my friends went to the drinking parties, while I stayed at home. That was my choice."

 

Sorry, but I don't see the situations as being analogous.

[evmori 11]

So Ed, does this mean you think that public schools should ignore their ethics (and the law, too)?

 

No Merlyn they shouldn't ignore their ethics. And I would bet they are by stopping the program and going the PC route. No law has been broken.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Sorry Ed, I'll go with the opinion of real lawyers:

"Schools Superintendent Robert Lichtenfeld said the district's lawyers had advised him that the school's support of any religious pledge runs contrary to the requirement for separation of church and state in public education."

[evmori 11]

"Schools Superintendent Robert Lichtenfeld said the district's lawyers had advised him that the school's support of any religious pledge runs contrary to the requirement for separation of church and state in public education."

 

There is no law that states the church & state must be separate.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, you may have noticed that there's no "right to a fair trial" law, or a "separation of powers" law, but lawyers refer to them, too; it's verbal shorthand. Sorry, public schools can't run a private club that requires a religious oath.

[TheScout 10]

Yeah Merlyn, because there is not "right to a fair trial" or "seperation of powers" either. Like wall between church and state such terms mean nothing.

 

There are constitutional guidelines on how to run a trial and how the branches of the government relate to each other.

 

There is also the first amendment, but that protects the exercise of religon as much as it stops its establishment.

 

Again, it seems like most people ignore your warped view of the Constitution imposed on people by an imperial judiciary as they ignore the spirit and the text of the federal constitution.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

You'll notice that the real lawyers advising the school are in agreement with my views and not yours, TheScout. I see no point in building imaginary legal systems; I prefer to deal with the actual one my country has.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[evmori 11]

The school lawyers, huh. And it's not possible they are making their recommendation on the side of caution so as not to offend anyone. Better known as being PC. Doesn't mean they are correct.

 

All this has done is stopped a very valuable program because someone got their feelings hurt. Guess what, there are no constitutional guarantees you won't get your feelings hurt.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10