BSA and Dissent

[Hunt 11]

One thing that has troubled me in some discussions here is the suggestion that BSA's policies--from mundane ones like uniforming to critical ones like membership requirements--shouldn't be questioned or criticized by mere volunteers. It's often suggested that if somebody doesn't like BSA's policies, they should leave. My view has always been that as an American and as a dues-paying member of BSA, I should be free to hold whatever views I want, to express them, and even to try to convince the organization to change its policies if I think it can be improved--as long as I follow the rules. If BSA wants to impose a rule that none of its members can disagree with its official pronouncements under penalty of expulsion, they can do that--but if they do, they ought to take all the little American flags off the uniforms. But I'm pleased to say that this is not BSA's official position. The following is a quote from a press release on the National Council website:

"Cradle of Liberty Council President David Lipson has expressed disagreement with the BSA's membership policies, as is his right. BSA members are free to hold their own opinions, but we ask that they respect the values of the organization and abide by its policies, which they have agreed to by becoming members." Cradle of Liberty announced that they would comply with BSA's membership policies--even though their President disagrees with some of them. I guess when he weighs those issues against those he agrees with, he makes the conclusion that it's better to stay in the organization than to quit. That's why I won't quit over having to double-register merit badge counselors, or even more significant disagreements or questions I might have. So I would kindly request that other posters follow BSA's lead and respect the right of Scouters to disagree with BSA policy as long as they comply with the rules.

[evmori 11]

As BSA members, we need to follow the policies. We don't have to agree with each & every one! I know I don't & I'm sure there are many other posters here who don't! Just because we don't agree with all the policies means we can't be members!

 

If there are policies that we think should be changed we should try to get them changed. Until we do, they must be followed.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[LovetoCamp 9]

Hunt are you saying that you, the dissenter, should be free to ramble on about anything and everything you disagree with and the rest of us should be silent should we disagree with your positions? Don't think so Scooter.

[LovetoCamp 9]

You can dissent about anything you want to in this wonderful country, when you do, you should get your catcher's mitt out and be prepared.

[scoutingagain 20]

Hunt,

 

I tend to agree with you, but it seems as if TP has a point. If some are free to disagree on membership requirements, merit badge couselors, uniforms or whatever, those that disagree with the BSA's policy of tolerance of dissent are also free to express their opinion as well, although I would suggest they are free to form their own organization that does not tolerate dissent if they wish.

 

SA

 

 

[scoutingagain 20]

Note: My last post should have a at the end.

 

SA

[Hunt 11]

Yeah, what scoutingagain said! If you don't like toleration of dissent, take a hike!

 

Seriously,I am willing to discuss any issue and take any contrary arguments. What I am tired of, however, is the suggestion by anybody that if I disagree with BSA's policy on anything, I should quit.

[Eamonn 61]

I like to think that we have a system for changing things. Sad thing is that so many choose not to follow it.

Lord, knows I do more then my fair share of whining,and complaining.

At times I use this forum as a way of checking out if there is any merit in my complaint. At times I use just to vent.

As a unit volunteer you have several ways of getting things off your chest.

Each and every month we hold a District Committee meeting all the Charter Reps. are invited and can voice any concerns that they might have. Our Commissioner Staff also have a monthly meeting where the Unit Commissioners report concerns from the units.

We hold weekly key3 meetings where plans can be made to address any problems.

As District Chairman I sit on the Council Executive Board and represent the District. We also hold quarterly Council Key3 meetings.

As a council we send representatives to the National meeting, where they represent the council.

We have representation on our Area Committee who report to the Region. We also have people who serve on the National Committee.

I don't know how the Chartered Organizations are represented, but I feel sure that they have some input, mainly on the Relationships Committee.

Of course with an organization of this size things aren't going to happen over night and change comes slow, sometimes so slow that we don't notice it.

I by no means think that the BSA is always right and at times have voiced my opinions. Still I do think that there is a time and a place. I can't see me ever sitting around the camp fire telling a group of Boy Scouts that I think such and such is a load of rubbish. However there have been many a night when my best friend a VP in our Council, and I have sat down and put the world to rights.

Maybe I do think that $13.00 is too much for a pair of socks, however it's going to take more then a few bucks to get rid of me. Maybe I think that allowing Scouts to be multiples in a Crew is dumb, but I will voice this to the right people and maybe it will change. Maybe the BSA will pass a ruling that Roman Catholics can no longer serve in the BSA and that will be the end of me. Not that I can ever seeing them passing it, but I am here to deliver or support the programs of the BSA. When we come to something that I can't live with, I will remember that I only serve.

I don't own.

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Laurie 10]

If someone is not willing to abide by BSA policies, then shouldn't that person leave? My being American does not entitle me to a BSA leadership position; my willingness to adhere to BSA policy does allow me to considered for BSA leadership. My paying for my membership does not allow me to change the BSA or pick and chose what to follow; it allows me the benefits of being part of this organization. There are those who brush aside policy and rules and do their own thing--that troubles me. There are those who disagree, some here do, speak up about it and even act on it, but they do so without blowing off the policies and rules. By the way, did BSA impose a rule that none of its members can disagree with its official pronouncements as the original post alluded to? Or is that just to get conversation flowing? (Not a hard thing to manage in this group )

[Bob White 20]

The BSA does not require anyone to agree with all its policies or program, but they do require two things if you disagree.

 

1. You are required to follow the policies and program as they exist and as you agreed to do when you joined.

 

2. You are required to disagree in a constructive manner through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed.

 

If you do not follow the policies or if you disagree in a public manner and you detract from the delivery of the program you can and likely will have your membership revoked.

 

As a member you are a guest in the house of the BSA. Do not expect to stand in the hosts home and insult them and expect to be welcome. You have a right to your opinion but BSA has a right to associate with people who share their same views. Your right to your opinion does not negate their right of free association.

 

Membership is a privilege and a responsibility, not a right, and should be treated as such.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

If you do not follow the policies or if you disagree in a public manner and you detract from the delivery of the program you can and likely will have your membership revoked.

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Oops, ignore that. I was starting to write a response to BobWhite and my computer had a problem, and did not realize until now that that actually got posted. Those words are Bob's not mine.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Maybe now I'll have time to actually write this. Bob says:

 

The BSA does not require anyone to agree with all its policies or program, but they do require two things if you disagree.

 

1. You are required to follow the policies and program as they exist and as you agreed to do when you joined.

 

2. You are required to disagree in a constructive manner through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed.

 

If you do not follow the policies or if you disagree in a public manner and you detract from the delivery of the program you can and likely will have your membership revoked.

 

I think we all can agree that if you are a BSA volunteer, you are required to follow BSA policies and that you can be removed for failing to do so. That isn't really what this thread is about. What I would like to know, Bob, is where the other "rules" that you cite are published. Obviously to some extent they are common sense, but only to some extent. Perhaps more importantly, some of the terms you use are not self-defining, and therefore if what you say is really the rule, it is not always going to be clear to volunteer whether they are following it or not.

 

Specifically, where does it say that if you disagree, it must be in a "constructive manner" and "through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed?" And where is the term "constructive manner" defined? And what if going through channels produces no change, as it has (not) on the issue of gays? At that point is everybody just required to keep quiet? And how literal is the "going through channels" requirement, assuming there is such a thing? Am I, for example, allowed to write a letter to the editor, criticizing a policy of the BSA and calling for it to be changed? Am I allowed to post to an Internet web set criticizing a policy and calling for it to be changed? What if I use my real name in the post? What if I don't? Does it matter? Can I have my membership revoked for what I have posted in this forum over the past 2.5 years? Should my membership be revoked, Bob?

[Laurie 10]

Bob & NJ ~ Your posts have me wondering this:

 

How far may one go in expressing disagreement with any BSA policy?

 

I suppose I'm being too idealistic to think it is ok to disagree with policy so long as one practices it. Since there are those who agree with so much of what BSA stands for and offers, but do have disagreements of one sort or another (laser tag comes to mind, not just the God and homosexuality issues), what option--if any--is there to express disagreement?

[evmori 11]

I didn't know I was required to disagree when I signed up! That's news to me! I do know I am required to follow the rules. And does that also mean since I am required to disagree if I don't I can have my membership revoked?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10