Scouters as communist weapons dealers

[Bob White]

This thread is has nothing to do with communists, or weapons dealing, but since no one seemed bothered by using "scouters as babysitters" as an attention getter when it had nothing to do with the thread, I figured no one would mind them as weapons dealers either. We'll see.

 

What I wanted to talk about is the willingness of Scout Leaders to pick-and-choose what rules they will follow based solely on their personal comfort or convenience.

 

While I do not disagree that we have an awful lot of rules in our lives, certainly far more than in B-P's time, we also live in a far more complicated and intertwined world.

 

But, citizenship is a big part of what we teach in scouting and rules and laws are what help protect the functions of a society as well as protect the citizens.

 

In a recent post a scouter bragged on how he knowingly wears an incorrect uniform because it pleases him personally. No other poster said a word about it, even though the writer admitted it was against a BSA rule. A minor rule I agree, but a rule nonetheless.

 

I wonder if he expects the scouts to follow ALL the troop rules, or just the big ones...or just the ones that don't cause the scout personal inconvenience? Can the scout in the troop ignore rules for "sentimental reasons"?

 

It's so easy to say the rules of scouting are no big deal and to only follow the rules that are convenient to you but two things to remember.

1) The kids are watching you and if it's OK for you to choose which rules to follow then its Ok for them.

2) The difference between violating a scouting rule because its inconvenient is no different than the excuse a criminal uses to rob from his neighbor . having to earn a paycheck is inconvenient.

 

You choose to be a good citizen and follow the laws of the community you chose to live in, or you choose not to be a good citizen. Scouting is a microcosm of adult life for the scouts. What lessons are you really teaching them?

 

 

[Spiney Norman]

Bob,

You may not agree with this, and honestly it's okay to have your own opinion, but I believe if I live and act according to the scout oath and law I shouldn't have to memorize the rule book chapter and verse. We are trying to teach by example. We are Human.

 

BTW: You could be a communist and still be a good scout.

[evmori]

Eye catching title! Very inappropriate but eye catching.

 

I like the uniform. And As I have posted in the past, I wear mine to all Scout meeting & appropriate functions. That being said, it is interesting the BSA has a rule for something that isn't required.

 

Spiney,

Excellent point!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Which rule book are you talking about?

The one on safety? Do you feel that can be ignored?

The one on advancement? Should adults be able to control a scout's advancement based on personal whim rather than the rules? So do ignore that one?

The one that protects legal,licensed, property of the BSA? Do you not need to teach scouts to obey rules that protect other peoples rights and property?

 

Which rules in scouts and in your community can you ignore for your personal convenience and what rules in the troop and in the community do you teach the scouts they can ignore because they are only human?

 

Don't think that you don't teach them that because whether you realize it or not , you do it every time you break a rule.

 

Ed, not everyone drives a car but there are still laws that control how you do it when you do.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Not everyone drives a car but there are still laws that control how you do it when you do.

 

If you don't drive you don't need to know the laws. Bad analogy.

 

I thought all the rules & regulations we needed were covered by the Scout Oath & Law?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

This isn't just about not knowing the rules, this is about knowing them and choosing to not follow them because they are inconvenient to the individual. And its about what those behaviors teach the scouts.

 

If you want a discussion about a scout leaders responsibility to know the program that they are steering that's an entirely different thread. I don't think your arguement will hold water in that one either.

[Spiney Norman]

Violating YP rules because a leader feels they are inconvenient is a serious issue. Violating uniform guidlines just doesn't seem to be as aggregious an infraction in comparison.

 

Rules are rules, but the world is not and never will be colored black and white.

[Bob White]

I do not disagree with what you wrote Spiney, I disagree with what some scout leaders are teaching scouts by picking and choosing which rules apply to them and which do not based on personal comfort and convenience. Do you really mean to teach scouts that there are rules which they do not have to respect because they are little rules?

 

Is shoplifting less wrong if I only take little things or if I only take things for sentimental reasons or because it is more convenient for me to take them?

 

What rules do you teach or will you teach your children to ignore?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Spiney Norman]

Bob,

I teach my children that all rules are important. It's just that some are more important than others.

[Kahuna]

I seem to get drawn into all these discussions about rules no matter how hard I try to stay out. Rules are certainly important, but as pointed out above, some are more important than others. I much prefer to teach my kids the fine art of using judgment, rather than simply leaning on the rules. I think you would find the same attitude in the infantry.

 

Uniform rule violations are truly petty stuff. Certainly the kids in your troop will reflect your attitude and appearance and if you wish to have them properly uniformed you must show the example. But to go into minor infractions as comparable to YP violations is a bit much. In Sea Scouting, for some obscure reason, the "nationals" have decided that six square knots are enough and we are prohibited from wearing more. A lot of Sea Scouters (I am not one) disregard that rule and it doesn't bother me at all.

 

I was in the USAF, active duty and reserve, for 30 years and rose to a fairly high rank. In the early 1970's the USAF switched from a khaki summer uniform to a light blue/dark blue combination. You were supposed to wear black shoes and black socks with it. For some reason, I never seemed to have any black socks and always wore dark blue ones. After a while, it became a sort of badge of honor with me to always wear the dark blue socks. You could say I was setting a bad example for the people serving under me, I guess, but both I and they did pretty well at promotion time.

 

It is important, I believe, to train Scouters and Scouts in what the rules are. It is also important to know when some of them should be disregarded and can be safely disregarded.

 

Safety is important, YP is important. Sometimes the rules on safety or YP may not be sufficient to cover a situation and you may need a higher standard. Other times, your judgment will tell you to go easy on some situations. I don't think anyone who can't the difference could be a very good leader in scouting or anythng else.

 

You can't cover everything with rules. Judgment will produce better results than a rule book every time.

[Bob White]

I agree, but the question being discussed is, do you teach them to follow only the big ones? And...who gets to do the measuring? Do you suppose the people the rule was made by and especially the people the rule protects, might see it's importance a bit larger than the people who are expected to follow it.

 

I sure you will agree that if everyone disobeyed rules as they pleased it could cause a bit of chaos in many ways. So who gets to decide that you can break rules that you see as small and inconvenient but others should obey the rules?

 

Kahuna,

In the military, officers wear the uniform right because of pride and tradition. Lower ranks to a great degree I'm sure do what they believe is right or what they can get away with.

 

Where do you suppose those two different attitueds are formulated?

 

As an enlisted personnel you might not worry about how your example affects those following behind you. But as a Scout Leader shouldn't you???

Shouldn't you consider that a LOT?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutingagain]

With all due respect Bob W. I don't think there are many scouters that pick and choose which rules they follow "based solely on their personal comfort or convenience. "

 

Do we all deliver the program perfectly as designed and intended? Probably not. But most are doing the best they can with the resources they have. In some cases a unit may miss an outing because they can't get enough adults to volunteer. In others, maybe they can't get everyone to wear a full and correct uniform, because it's difficult to convince parents it's worth the cost, and even at District and Council events, a substantial portion of attendees, including adult leaders, don't wear a full and correct uniform. They can't make every meeting and while they volunteer for training, other adult leaders in the troop can't find the time for training and don't understand the program. Sure we could ask the CO to find new leaders that will find the time for training, but these are parents, committed to their children and in addition to volunteering for scouts, are soccer coaches, leaders in church groups and other youth organizations and finding committed adults that are willing to spend "one hour a week" with scouts and camp with them is not that easy. Maybe on an occaision an adult inadvertantly finds himself alone with a scout, through no fault of his or her own.

 

Personally, I have yet to meet an adult scouter who is in the program for their own benefit. Everyone I have met, their primary reason for being involved is to support the youth members in some way. I will admit I probably do not know as many as some of you who have been involved with the program longer than I have and there probably some that are out there to that are involved satisfy their own ego somehow. I just havn't met them.

 

So what do we teach scouts when we try and come up short? We try and try again. We move the program forward inch by inch, centimeter by centimeter as best we can. Each year, we do something a little better and take satisfaction in that. It might be we find a unit that's not doing the whole program, not all of it, but the're trying to do scouting and want to. The next year they do a little better. The next year they lose a really popular ASM and the Webelos class that joins all turn out to like baseball better then camping and fall back a bit. The following year they pick up an enthusiastic Webelos leader and 12 new scouts that love camping and the outdoors. And they just keep on doing the best they can for the scouts that do show up.

 

And once in a while, even for those units that don't wear a full uniform, do a high adventure trip every year, have a full and active roster of trained MB counselors, a fully staffed and trained committee and scoutmaster core, they get to watch a young man enter the scouting program, who picks his nose, stutters and can barely get himself dressed and fed on his first campout, cries because he's away from home, who will never be elected president of the student council or be captain of the football team, go through their unit, rise through the ranks, spend time with younger scouts, get elected SPL, earn his Eagle and graduates from High School a polished, well spoken young man on his way to a good college or university.

 

Sorry for the rant. I just got going.

 

SA

 

 

[dan]

Anyone that would say

Uniform rule violations are truly petty stuff.

Really is living in an ivory tower.

Picture a small scout, his family living in poverty really loves scouting, but the one troop in his neighborhood has a rule that a Full Uniform must be worn at all meetings and BOR.

This scouts has no recourse but to drop out of scouting.

Pretty petty is it not!

Just like the poster on this board that wants to make uniforms mandatory, cannot see the forest because of the trees.

 

[Bob White]

This is not about following the program perfectly. This is a question of knowingly ignoring a rule becsuse it doesn't suit you personally as far as importance or convenience and asking what does that teach the scout.

 

Which rules in your troop are unimportant and a scout can choose to ignore without penalty.

 

Which rules in your community are so small you tell your scouts they do not have to follow them?

 

This is not about making a mistake and getting better. This is about the large number of times on this forum that scouters have said in effect "I know its against the rule but I do.......

 

and it is seems always based on personal convenience.

 

As I mentioned as the most recent example a scouter posted that he wore the uniform incorrectly for "sentimental reasons" and that he would only wear it correctly if it became convenient for him.

 

Does no one else see the harm in that attitude as a leader? It's not about any harm done to the uniform or the BSA there probably was very little, it is about the horrible example of citizenship that is displayed to a scout by making your personal needs the gauge by which you determine what rules in society apply to you and which ones don't.

 

We are leaders, shouldn't we be concerned about where we are leading them?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kahuna]

What officers do is based on pride, tradition and leadership ability. Enlisted people do, to some degree, what they can get away with, but they also do what they are inspired to do by their leaders, the officers. General Patton was a leader who was usually in trouble because he violated a lot of rules (the least of which were wearing twin personal sidearms for example and donning rank insignia before his promotions were actually finalized), but his men would follow him anywhere because they respected him and to some degree feared him.

 

Boy Scouts are much the same way. As a Scout leader, you should ALWAYS consider how your example affects the kids you lead. I just don't think the fact that you wear or don't wear all your square knots is going to turn your troop into Lord of the Flies.