Religious Question

[Scoutfather 10]

Does the GSUSA really accept flat-out atheists? Basically, if a girl says, I have no religious belief, no spiritual life, and I neither believe in nor accept God, can she truly be a Girl Scout?

 

I know that the commonly held belief is that the GSUSA is atheist friendly, but the website also says that they believe a 'spiritual' side is necessary. Since I'm not aware of any court case that tested THIS issue, what is the real, official policy?

 

If anyone really knows, my HUGE thanks in advance!

[SagerScout 10]

I don't know what the real official policy is, except to say that I know the GSUSA has a very strong bent toward supporting the right of the parent to control the religious education of the child. Likewise, the education with regards to sensitive issues such as drug use, sex, and most other subjects that may involve controversy. I know that in the Promise, the girl may substitute the word or words of her choice (or her family's choice) for "God." I guess there is nothing to stop a secular humanist from promising to serve "humanity and my country." Now, I think there might be an acceptance problem if the Scout wished to serve HERSELF and likewise if she wished to serve Satan or any of his namesakes.... but I've never heard of such a thing happening. If the idea of uncompensated service is really anathema to the family I'm guessing we won't see the girl anyway.

 

I have a girl in my troop who is still trying to decide about God; her immediate family members are not believers but her grandparents are. She says the Promise as written with her parent's approval. She bows her head at prayer times (grace) out of respect for those around her, also with her parent's approval. I figure as a leader I can stand by for her in case she decides to join the body of Christ. But I don't feel it's my job as a scout leader to reel her in, other than by setting an example of a good and joyful Christian.

 

As far as the spiritual side, the ways in which it has come up in common scouting experience includes observing the beauty of nature with awe and reverence; giving thanks before meals; and in Scout's Own ceremonies, which are NOT religious ceremonies per se but are designed by the scouts themselves to express their feelings. So if a scout HAS religious feelings, she might express them; but if a scout does not she has no requirement to participate, or she may choose a different way to participate.

 

For the record, I was raised in an atheist family; the closest we came to church was the Unitarian church, rarely, and in my Southern Baptist hometown this was a lonely place to be. Needless to say, I wasn't a Girl Scout. Honor student, no drugs or drinking, tried to help out others, tried hard to be a real good kid, but not a Girl Scout. I think I would have been a good one and regret that I never had the chance.

 

For the record, I was baptized in the United Methodist Church at age 28. Nothing in my conversion experiences nor in my reading of the Bible has convinced me that withdrawing fellowship from atheists is in my charter, nor that I must make efforts to convert them other than by simply witnessing what I believe and as I said, by setting a good example.

 

Some troops are probably more atheist-friendly than others, for instance, I know of troops sponsored by local Catholic churches that open meetings with prayers common in that church and do religion- related stuff frequently. Since all the girls in the troop are Catholic, there's no problem with this for them, but an atheist joining in might be uncomfortable. Other troops with no single-denominational bent would probably have less of that type of problem and an atheist might feel more welcome.

[yarrow 10]

Well said Sagerscout, and in keeping with everything I have read from National. It is; however, widely held that Girls Scouts have thrown God out. Girl Scouts allow for a broader and more personal expression of God in the promise as your reply indicated. In the long run it has kept GSUSA out of the hot water BSA finds itself in all the time and fits with all their views on diversity and tolerance. I must say that when the interpretation first came down I was pretty hot, but later realized that it meshes better with the Girl Scout ideals and I can not force Christianity down anyones throat nor would I want to.

[ASM7 10]

Yarrow and Sagerscout

Sounds to me like the GSA lowered it's ideals. Political correctness is what governed the GSA's decision. BSA has no intention of lowering its ideals because some people believe differently. We also acknowledge those who do but prefer to keep them from tainting our organization. I have a hard time understanding your statement about a broader and more personal expression of God. If that allows like Sagerscout said, we can use any word we want, then the GSA has really cowered back. You said that substituting the words "myself" or "satan" might bring on an acceptance problem. According to the new promise, they can sub the word of their choice and you have to accept it. In supporting the right of the parent, Jesus called God, Abba, translated loosely Father, translated more accurately, Daddy. What do you think Daddy would say about this?

Doug

[ScoutNut 147]

TAINTING?? People who believe differently than you are "tainting" the BSA??? All righty then. I guess I must be "tainting" your version of BSA because I sure don't agree with you!

 

GSUSA has NOT lowered their ideals. Their ideals are the same as they have been since GSUSA was founded in 1912. They just are not the same as yours. Girl Scouting is for every girl, everywhere. NOT JUST those girls that believe the same as I do, or who agree with me, or who I feel are worthy.

 

Since it is obvious to me that you have NEVER been involved in the Girl Scout program, here is what our ideals are all about:

 

The Promise and Law provide the framework and ethical code for the Girl Scout program. The values expressed in the Promise and Law serve as the foundation for all activities in the Girl Scout program. Girl Scout membership is extended to all girls who accept the Girl Scout Promise and Law.

 

GIRL SCOUT PROMISE

On my honor I will try:

To serve God* and my country,

To help people at all times,

And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

 

GIRL SCOUT LAW

I will do my best to be

honest and fair,

friendly and helpful,

considerate and caring,

courageous and strong,

responsible for what I say and do,

and to

respect myself and others,

respect authority,

use resources wisely,

make the world a better place, and

be a sister to every Girl Scout.

 

Used thoughtfully and often in your everyday life, the Promise and Law can help you take action when you are faced with a decision. They can help you define or articulate the personal values that will give meaning and direction to your life.

 

 

*The word "God" has always been used to represent the spiritual foundation of the Girl Scout movement. Since Girl Scouting is for all girls, girls whose beliefs are expressed by a word or phrase other than "God" may substitute that for the word "God" when they say the Girl Scout Promise. When written, the word "God" is always in the Promise.

 

THESE are the ideals of GSUSA. I, for one, happen to agree with them!

 

Nut

Proud to be both a Girl Scout AND a Boy Scout!!

 

[SagerScout 10]

There are those that believe that God's name is Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah. Many if not most of these are fine humans willing to serve humanity. Accepting them as my scouting companions in no way "taints" the organization.

 

Most churches have fine youth groups and I would encourage anyone and everyone that wants their children to have group experiences exclusively with those who are like-minded in faith to participate with their church's youth group. My son participates in ours.

 

If you want a different mix, Scouting (Boy or Girl) CAN offer that.

 

Oops, though, I gather the LDS church and perhaps some other ones use Boy Scouts as their church's youth program. This is perfectly all right with me, but I would NOT put my son into an LDS scout group as they have beliefs that are totally incompatible with my own and I would not want my son to be TAINTED with their views. Does that ruin the Boy Scouts of America? Of course not.

 

Likewise, I would not put my daughter into a Catholic church-sponsored girl scout group. Why not? The Catholic church is a perfectly good church which is responsible for a great deal of good work(and unfortunately some evil as well, but I digress). I believe most Catholics to be earnestly serving God. But there are some core beliefs that I do not share. Are the Girl Scouts WRONG to allow Catholic scouts? Of course not.

 

What about an Islamic group??? Jehovah's Witnesses??? Extreme right-wing Evangelical Christians???? Presbyterians???? Southern Baptists??? Jews??? Atheists??? I disagree in some points (from minor to VERY MAJOR ones) with all of these. Should they all be excluded from Scouting because of that? I don't think so.

 

So we get right back to the idea that parents can and should monitor not only the overall ideals of the groups their kids hang out with, but also the individual delivery of those ideals. My personal feelings align more closely with the Girl Scouts attitude toward religion. I feel that the Boy Scouts are absolutely wrong on a couple of major points. The national program's abuse of homosexual volunteers and scouts is at the very top of the list. The overwhelming promulgation of religious and social bigotry that I see in many troops is running a close second, and I have removed my son from a troop that I felt was promoting an intolerant and bigoted worldview. If that's how that CO wants the troop to be, fine, we just won't be there with them.

 

However, I see enough good in both programs to want to work with both of them to help my children grow into the fine and responsible adults I want them to be. I therefore am trying, as I know many others are, to keep my political discussions civil and at the adult level, so that they don't interfere with the fun of the scouting programs for the kids. I teach my own children how I feel about God, gay rights, the divinity of Christ, the rise of Islam, the story of creation, drug use, alcohol abuse, sex before marriage, the legalization of marijuana and many other topics of current debate, but I do not think the Scout troops I serve should get into these debates as 1. other parents may disagree with me, it is their job to talk to their own kids, and 2. we've got a campout to plan.

 

If you'se guys want to throw me out of both organizations because my religious beliefs disagree with some of you, write a letter. Otherwise, join the church youth program of your choice and use it to strengthen your children's faith and teaching the faith of your family, and leave the Scouting program alone.

 

 

 

 

[sctmom 11]

I read a book a couple of years ago by Joan Borysenko that talks about how women approach religion. I think it is called "A Woman's Path To God". I don't necessarily agree with everything she says but she brings out some good points about how women and men approach things such as religion. In general women tend to be more accepting of other's "paths" and men see one way to reach a goal. I'm sure there are other authors out there who talk about this. I think this contributes to some of the differences in Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.

 

my 2 cents

 

[ASM7 10]

Scoutnut

I didn't refer to people who believe in God as tainting the organization. As was referring to those who do not beleive. According to BSA oath a scout promises to do his best to do his duty to God, and to join you have to understand and agree to live by that oath. Now, it seems to me that the BSA backs me up in not allowing anyone who does not beleive in God. The GSA as you stated does allow for a substitution for God, whatever that means. I never said we don't accept all faiths, in fact we welcome them. I happen to be a Christian, but we have scouts of different faiths in our troop.

 

Sagerscout

You seem to ask a question about a lot of different religions and denominations of one religion. Then you group atheists in with all the rest. Religion is a belief in God. Atheism is not. I prefer not to mix apples and oranges. Atheists cannot according to the Scout Oath become Boy Scouts. Sorry.

 

Lowering that standard in my opinion is not something the BSA wants to do. Nor do they want to lower the standard of not allowing leaders and scouts who don't try to live their life being morally straight. The gay lifestyle does not fit in the category of being morally straight. And their lifestyle is illegal in most states. I prefer not to succomb to political correctness.

 

And yes, my two daughters were Girl Scouts before the change of standards in the GSA and my wife was a leader.

 

[ScoutNut 147]

ASM7 -

 

As I stated earlier, GSUSA has NOT lowered their standards. They simply choose not to force a girl to say that she will serve God when she does not believe in the Christian God. How would you feel if you were forced to swear to serve Budda, or Allah. This is not lowering of standards. This is common courtesy and religious freedom.

[SagerScout 10]

Umm, I disagree that "religion is a belief in God." I would say, rather, that religion is comprised of a set of beliefs regarding the way Man should relate to God, and God to Man. I know a great number of individuals who believe in God and not in religion. Some of these individuals actually self-identify as atheists, despite an actual core belief in some kind of a Higher Power, because they have not found the religion that expresses their own relationship with God. They have fallen into your semantic trap, which I find to be a common one.

 

I also know a fair number of individuals who appear to believe in religion but not God. They see little benefit to prayer and pray as if they don't expect anything to happen.

 

I know very few 8 year olds raised in families without specific religious instruction who could possibly figure out their own feelings on this. So I can't imagine why we'd want to exclude them from our Scout troops.

 

[ASM7 10]

Sagerscout

Webster's defines religion as "belief in and worship of a God." therefore I am confused by your statements. I don't discount any religion and I beleive that you should have a freedom to believe what you want to beleive. All religions beleive in God, some beleive in more than one. All who profess this are allowed in BSA.

 

Scoutnut, I did not say you had to beleive in the Christian God. I said that I am a Christian. I also said that we welcome ALL faiths. We have to be careful though what some call God. Some may worship the dollar, but that is not God. There is a difference between God and god. The BSA oath uses the word God. Webster's defines the capitalized "God" as "the creator and ruler of the universe in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religions." If you are an athiest, you do not beleive that a supreme being is the creator and the ruler of the universe. BSA does not allow for that. If the GSA does then it has lowered it's standards to satisfy all people. That's called being politically correct. Being politically correct rarely involves raising standards.

[ScoutNut 147]

"We have to be careful though what some call God. Some may worship the dollar, but that is not God."

 

Alrighty then, if I followed your somewhat flawed logic, it is wrong if you are a Girl Scout to say "Dollar" and mean "God". But if you are a Boy Scout you MUST say "God" even if you mean "Dollar" because by saying "God" instead of "Dollar" it makes it OK. Unless, of course, you plan on doing a "Mind Meld" with everyone in the BSA who says the word "God" to find out what they REALLY mean!

 

As for me - I believe I will Praise Allah, not God, and bow down to Bast, but rename her God!!

 

This is getting W-A-A-A-A-Y to silly for me! I think that I shall simply agree to disagree with you.

 

May the "Great Spirit of Scouting" guide you - OOPS! Sorry, I guess that should have been "God" too!!

 

NUT

(Who's not nuts enough to continue THIS discussion!)

[ASM7 10]

I was a little concerned about some of the things said in this thread so I talked to God about them last night. I was satisfied with the answers I received. It was a private conversation but he said he was available if you wanted to talk. Amen

[littlebillie 10]

from: http://www.girlscouts.org/adults/beliefs.html

 

"We, the members of Girl Scouts of the United States of America, united by a belief in God and by acceptance of the Girl Scout Promise and Law, do dedicate ourselves to the purpose of inspiring girls with the highest ideals of character, conduct, patriotism, and service that they may become happy and resourceful citizens.

 

We believe that the motivating force in Girl Scouting is a spiritual one.

 

We affirm that the Girl Scout Movement shall ever be open to all girls and adults who accept the Girl Scout Promise and law."

 

Preamble of the Constitution of Girl Scouts of the USA

 

 

Spiritual force. God comes before country in the promise. And so on. So is the GSUSA really as atheist-friendly as some media reports make them out to be, or is it just that their stance hasn't really been stress-tested to the extent of the BSA?