Guests at Ceremony

[Eagle92 110]

My specific inquiriy was for the Vigil Ceremony only.

 

When it comes to non-members concerend about the Ordeal I have talked at length about the entire procedure, asking that they do not discuss it with their son so as not to lose the significance. While I have not at this time let them read the ceremony script, as this was phone conversations, I would allow them to read it. I would strongly discourage them from attending the atcual ceremony though, but that is a decision for the lodge key 3. I also have suggested that they talk to Arrowmen in their unit, both youth and adults. That usually helps.

 

In referecne to non OA members who are in Scouting,i.e. parents who are Scouters, I would try everythign in my power to discuss everything without showing them the script since it would lose something when they become eligible to join the OA.

 

The reason why the OA wants to safeguard stuff is to keep some of the mystery to the entire process. In my expierence, not knowing what the ceremony entails makes it more significant than knowing what will happen ahead of time. Think of Christmas and Birthday presents.

[Docrwm 10]

I do NOT believe I took the comments here, and on the rest of this OA list, out of context at all.

 

Yes, there are some who agree with me and who are in OA, and I am always happy to see folks who understand that secrecy is a thing of the past with BSA.

 

However, there is clearly a component here that wants to reserve some mystique and that implies privacy and/or secrecy. I understand wanting it to be a surprise for the boys - got it, moving on. I do NOT understand in any way whatsoever the apparent negative reaction to allowing others to observe.

 

As for your assertion that I took things out of context: What started this whole thread? A question about someone from another OA Lodge being allowed to observe for Gosh sake!! If there are folks here and in OA who are nervous about other "Arrow Men" seeing their ceremonies that makes me worried - PERIOD. If there are OA folks who don't want someone who is IN YOUR GROUP to see what you are doing then what do you think their real reaction to a non-OA parent observing is going to be - really?

[Vicki 11]

Doc, I guess I just don't see the boogey-man here. It seemed to me that he was asking a protocol question based on the fact that Vigil is the highest honor that OA can bestow and he wanted to make sure it was handled correctly. Seems like a go-along to get-along type of question which is what greases the skids of human relationships.

 

Every reply said it was totally appropriate and some, like myself, cited experience with other lodges. Most said to inquire, anticipating a positive response. The example of Christmas presents was given.

 

To get to basics, since I'm a bit of a wordsmith - "mystique - an aura of heightened value, interest, or meaning surrounding something, arising from attitudes and beliefs that impute mystery to it."

 

I believe the desire to preserve the "wow" of the experience is being expressed here and the source of what you have perceived as "negative reactions."

 

But you are, of course, entitled to your own opinions.

 

Vicki

 

[shortridge 184]

My concern is the very fine line between discouraging and barring.

 

Depending on who's doing the talking (i.e., someone with poor campfireside manner), sometimes there is no line.

 

Best way to handle it, as others have posted, is to kick it up the line to the lodge chief, adviser or staff adviser. They should be well-versed in addressing questions of this nature.

[croushorn 10]

Doc I think you are over reacting and reading too much in a forum here. Do as has been recommended by numerous folks and I think it will put your mind at ease. Please reserve comment on some of these things until you investigate them properly.

[emb021 16]

"However, there is clearly a component here that wants to reserve some mystique and that implies privacy and/or secrecy. I understand wanting it to be a surprise for the boys - got it, moving on. I do NOT understand in any way whatsoever the apparent negative reaction to allowing others to observe."

 

Doc, since you are not part of the OA, you don't understand that privacy and mystery IS part of the OA.

 

The issue of allowing non-Arrowmen to observe our ceremonies is one that is too often misunderstood.

 

I thought I made it clear what the policy is.

 

Again, our ceremonies are NOT public. BUT, the policy has been for a very long time that if someone (parent, community leader, etc) had questions/concerns about our ceremonies, that we first review the ceremony with them and if they still wanted to observe, then YES, it most certainly is allowed. We do not and can not bar anyone with legitamate reasons from viewing our ceremonies.

 

But that policy should not turn our ceremonies into a public event like a high school graduation. This is why the negative reaction to this topic. Those of us who understand OA policy understand that observation IS ALLOWED. And no one is disputing that. But our ceremonies are private. All our ceremony handbooks state that they be safeguarded (ie, not provided to non-members).

 

 

[Docrwm 10]

Thanks for everyone taking time to discuss my concerns. They remain.

 

I do not want to sell tickets to your events. Problem is, discouraging others from viewing them can be taken loads of ways. It was often a defense in the past, after a problem, for folks to say things like "Well, they could have come and seen it for themselves if they had wanted to..." As for the "You're not a member so you don't get it" answer (paraphrasing)....please. I've been a member of several secret societies and fraternities. I "get" what secrecy is all about. Its just that it is completely incompatible with BSA's position on the subject.

 

Don't get me started with issues of voting and how the LAW said every citizen over X in my State could register and vote. Its still heard in places here "Oh, of course they have the right to vote....." but then there are impediments in the way for certain folk.

 

Private, mystique, etc., etc., etc. are merely ways of more politely saying "You're not welcome and we don't want you to know."

 

I truly did not start this to offend anyone. But, when the initial issue was whether or not someone from another lodge could actually view the ceremonies at a lodge not their own, it does indeed indicate a certain mindset about the ceremonies being private.

 

All I can hope is that someone reading this will get it. It seems to me that the focus of OA on service, doing for others, etc. is perfectly in line with my personal and religious beliefs. Those are things I want my son to value. Here's the bottom line in my humble opinion - if, as an official activity under BSA auspices, one has to ask permission to attend a ceremony ITS NOT PUBLIC. Its sort of like being pregnant, you're either pregnant or your not - its either genuinely open or its not.

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Doc,

 

No, the ceremonies are not open to the general public. They are for members. The object of the exercise is to use mystery and the unknown as elements. Kids thrive on that.

 

Parents, pastors, teachers, others having concerns should contact the Lodge Adviser, a volunteer, or the Lodge Staff Adviser, a professional, to ask their questions. The path of knowledge can extend all the way up to attendance at a ceremony, depending on if the question can be answered by other means.

 

The information is available. The lodge adviser or staff adviser in your council can assist you in determining what information you need to answer your questions.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[John-in-KC 311]

Eagle92,

 

To answer your question, Sir, register him and pay his dues to a Lodge. If you do something like have a Vigil Banquet, pay for that too. Then there should be no issues.

 

If he's out of Scouting at the moment, this is a good time to bring him back to the fold.

[Eagle92 110]

Ok this has gone a little beyond what I intended as my question. When I used the term "Guests" in the question, I should have stated out of lodge Arrowmen attending a function. I did not mean non members, but Arrowman from a different lodge.

 

John KC, We are going "to do our best" to make sure the brother can make it.

[Vicki 11]

I was mulling this question as I attended our OA Fall Reunion this weekend - I'm told it's one of the largest nationally. Maybe observed a little sharper than I usually do. There were parents there - most just hanging out, but there were a couple at the Ordeal induction I attended, and I noticed others here and there in the lineups I saw heading for ceremonies.

 

With that said, when we went out of council this year to South Carolina, I noticed the old language about no one allowed to attend ceremonies except Arrowmen in their camp manual - when I asked, I was told that I should know camp manuals are always out of date. Some of the MB descriptions were WAY out of date. This sort of thing doesn't help our image, nor assuage the concerns of folks like Doc.

 

I also thought some about trust, not something I give lightly. The leaders I've been privileged to serve with in a couple of troops, and the leaders I've met through staffing adult leader training and WB, are people that I've gotten to know pretty well. But I've also taken the time to get to know them, get to know the process, and not jump to conclusions about underlying motives.

 

Just a couple of observations after a weekend in the woods.

Vicki

[John-in-KC 311]

Vicki,

 

First, obsolete language is never helpful. Implies no one is working to keep current. In fact, I'm starting a new corner at our RT next month because we have folks who are not current on Eagle Required MBs... and they are SMs and CCs.

 

Second, our Fall Fellowship is three weekends away. It is closed to non-Arrowmen. In fact, that particular Scout Reservation is closed that weekend except for OA doings.

 

There is nothing in the literature I know of that requires ceremonies to be open to the general public. The literature mandates no secret societies, and requires that parents, pastors, teachers and others with a concern have access to the materials, and, if adjudged necessary and appropriate, access to the ceremony.

[shortridge 184]

Actually, there's nothing that restricts information to parents, family members, teachers or religious leaders.

 

From the Guide to Inductions (at oa-bsa.org):

 

The Order of the Arrow, recognizing the attractiveness of the unknown, utilizes the form of mystery. This shall not be interpreted, however, as justifying the withholding of any information regarding the order from any person legitimately interested in investigating its nature, purpose, or method.

 

The key words there, of course, are "any information" and "legitimately interested." Does "information" refer to attendance at a ceremony, or just reading copies of the ceremonies? Who determines whether an investigation is legitimate? There's a reason lodges have staff advisers who report directly to the Supreme Chief of the Fire - they get paid the big bucks to answer questions like those. (Minor snark on "big bucks" for the staff adviser, not so for the SE.)

 

The way I read the Guide to Inductions, you don't have to have a concern to be allowed to attend, or even have a connection with a candidate or member. Hypothetically, as a journalist, I could request access on the grounds that I was working on a story about hazing and secret societies. That would be a legitimate investigation in my book, and the lodge would certainly have an interest in showing that it's not doing bad stuff.

 

Doc: Please contact your lodge directly with your concerns. They're in the best position to put them to rest. They can also put you in touch with OA members on the local level - folks you probably know and have worked with in Scouting. No one is interested in hiding anything.

[Vicki 11]

Well, as always, learning happens. John, I hope you weren't implying that I thought obsolete language was helpful? That's not what I said, but I realize e-mail is sometimes not as clear as personal contact.

 

I assumed that these parents had asked the OA troop rep, who got with the lodge chief, who, if he didn't have a pat answer, consulted with the lodge adult advisor. If I get a moment, I may have to try to validate/invalidate that assumption.

 

Obviously my lodge reads the language on the side of openness. I have noted many positives about Shawnee lodge when I've had the opportunity to compare - I guess this is another one.

 

Vicki

[acco40 95]

Driving around Amish country the past weekend I notice many proud Vigil member displaying his OA membership with a sign on the back of their horse drawn buggy.

 

Yes, no problem with guests just get "clearance" in advance to avoid disruption.