le Voyageur 72 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 For the now I'm really torn with the decision to stay within the Scouting movement. It's because of what is happening to our civil liberties. Soon we will be the absolute property of the Federal government. Already I've made the decision beginning the 11th of May when the Real ID act kicks in to no longer attend any flag ceremonies, nor render any honors to the Stars and Stripes. America as I see it dies on that day with the Consitution replaced by the fiats of the Patriot Act, and the Real I.D. act. RIP America.... 3 September 1783 - 11 May 2008 Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 How will protesting US policies by dropping out of the BSA help? Just curious, not trying to be snarky. Calico Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yah, I hear yeh, le Voyageur. But yeh know, Scouting is an opportunity to teach, eh? And the kids are experiencing the same sort of creeping loss of liberty. Zero Tolerance policies. Intrusions based on peer-on-peer sexual harassment policies, hazing policies, bullying policies. Surveillance cameras and law enforcement officers in schools. Mandated curriculum and testing. Reductions in driving privileges by age. RIAA nuisance/extortion lawsuits against fellow teens. Restrictions on what they can do in Scouting that sometimes make no sense and that grow every year. It's telling that a politician like Ron Paul has quite a following among young people. Stick with da program. Teach the Citizenship Badges. Prepare the next generation to do a better job than we did. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 What Beavah said, le Voyageur. John Link to post Share on other sites
eisely 13 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ditto. Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Wow! I just read about the REAL ID act. Worrisome stuff. States rights started dying around 1860 and are ready to be put into the grave. Every time that something bad happens, the sheeple run around in circle, wave their hands in the air and cry out "we need more rules." A bomb in a shoe? Gotta take your shoes off to get on a plane. What happens when someone stuffs a bomb up their butt? Digital exams before you can board? A kid shoots another and the cry goes out for rules prohibiting guns at school despite the simple fact that the first kid broke 17 state and federal laws including the one about shooting other people. Next we'll have ID checks at state borders. Universal email and phone surveilance isn't far away. The sheeple cry "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have anything to worry about." The government is already attempting to bridle political speech with the laws regarding ads close to an election. I don't know if that one got shut down. We already have silly laws regarding "unlawful assembly". Since the government is in charge of educating our children, can any help be expected from that quarter? Columbus is evil. Washington and Jefferson were bad men. Lincoln was great because he took away the rights of states which resulted in the deaths of thousand but that's okay. I don't know if leaving BSA is the solution but I am worried about the new world order. Along those lines, I have never understood why the pundits are always crying out that "we've lost respect in the world community" So what. It doesn't mean that they won't sell us stuff or buy our stuff. It doesn't stop them from crying out for our aid when something goes wrong. End of rant. For now. Link to post Share on other sites
local1400 10 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Your Papers please. Your papers are not in order. You must come with us. (Heard at state line border crossing travelling to National Jamboree, 2010.) Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I hear you too, le Voyageur. The Real ID thing is, as noted by Gold Winger is profoundly idiotic. But also as noted, it has nothing to do with Scouting..nor will your absence from their lives be of benefit to them. Or am I wrong? So if you decide to quit, go ahead and do it. Your choice. Your reasons. If I make a similar choice, it will be my personal decision and I promise everyone here, you'll merely know it happened, nothing more. However, I cannot understand the linkage of Real ID to BSA leadership. I, too, have a visceral contempt for the idea (after all we already HAVE such an ID...it's called a 'Passport' - any citizen can get one). If I decide to quit, it will be for family, or career reasons. Not because of morons in government. As for you le Voyageur, I wish you the best...and the best of decisions. Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 LV, I agree with Calico, GW and pack. There will ALWAYS be morons in government. We can only vote. Link to post Share on other sites
GernBlansten 10 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Perhaps Voyageur is referring to ending his involvement in the Boy Scouts of AMERICA because America will exist in name only. Therefore the BSA will no longer be representative of the new American values and he cannot support it. Chin up though, the election is only 10 months away and several of the candidates (and one's a republican) talk of rolling back some of these civil liberty transgressions. The future's so bright, I have to wear shades. Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 On 3/02/07, it was announced by the US Government that enforcement of the provisions that apply to the states (which is really the meat of the Act, since that portion is about ID's and Drivers Licenses) would be postponed until March of 2009. On January 11 of 2008, it was announced that the enforcement of those provisions would be delayed even further, until sometime in 2011 - presumably to get more support for the act from the States. As it stands now, the majority of the States have passed resolutions, or have resolutions pending, opposing the Real ID Act. Only a few states have made any progess on adopting Real ID. Though California is one of the states that has made progress in implemeting Real ID, it should be noted that Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Texas are among the states that are opposing the act. Why is this significant? Georgia and Illinois have the two busiest airports in the country. New York and Texas also have very busy airports. All of these states account for a significant amount the US's GDP. In other words, these are the states that drive the vast majority of business in the country - the major markets are in New York and Illinois. If these states were to hold to their positions and defy the Feds on this legislation, it could trigger a massive economic slump that would make the Great Depressions of the 1800's and 1930's look like cakewalks. I suspect the real reason for the delay in enforcement until 2011 is to leave it to the next President to work with Congress to quietly repeal most of the provisions of the act (which seems to have been slipped into another bill without much debate) thus allowing the current administration to "save face" on yet another mistake they made. So le Voyageur, given that implementation has been delayed until 2011, maybe you can stick around for a few more years. Calico Link to post Share on other sites
captainron14 11 Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Just how will quitting scouting relate to and/or help change, what our government is doing? And how does not attending flag ceremonies or not rendering honors to the flag relate? Your argument sounds a bit sad to me. The Flag represents what our country stands for. Not some half baked politician. In the military some people say you may not respect the man who is the commander, but you respect his rank and position. One of the strengths of our country is that we can agree to disagree. However, something happened around the mid 1990s and has only gotten worse. Open "Political Hatred". People who despise the other party so much, that it affects how they live their lives, who they associate with, and who they do business with. These are people who are Republications or Democrats BEFORE they are Americans. Bipartisanship is almost dead, and those who have "the most marbles" at the time, love shoving "their" views down the others throats. Cooperation? Whats that? It's, "wait till I'm in charge and then you will be sorry!" In my opinion, we need to heal this country. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail this election and elect someone who can bring this country back together. Not another 8 years just like the last 16. That person can be either Democrat or Republican for all I care. Just be American First! As for those people (the day after the election) who put a Bumper Sticker or sign on their car or house that says "___________ is not my President", start heading north to Canada. Then that will be true (for you). We do not need any more hatred here. Regardless of what those people think, the USA is still the best thing going, and if you don't think so? Pack your bags and go check out that "greener grass" on the other side of the fence. You will find that all that is there, is the weeds "painted" green. BTW, That flag you do not want to "render honors to" also represents the thousands who died to give you the "right" to post your views on this forum. Find another way to protest, like voting, and show the youth of our great country (your scouts) that you too, are are an American first. OK, I'm off my soapbox now. Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 Like a COPE Director I've been holding back answering. Not to beat a dead horse GernB hit the nail on the head. America's Consitution is in tatters, our civil liberties reduced and yet few are protesting to stem this tide. As of yet, I'm still thinking about leaving as I tend to get in trouble for speaking the truth. I'll see how it goes at summer camp. None the less, the moment I begin to feel like a hypocrite I'm gone.. CaptRon....know that having served 22 years in the military (with 3 wars under my belt) I took an oath to support and defend the Consitution from all eniemes both foreign and domestic. Being retired that oath still applies. However I took no oath to defend a flag, and it's time to make a stand. Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 A passing thought to consider.... The backbone of the Star and Stripes is the Consitution, along with it's Bill of Rights. Without that backbone, the flag is nothing more then window dressing in the theatre called government. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I thought about your previous post where you mentioned speaking the truth. My observation is that if you let that concern cause you to quit scouting, then you've allowed the forces that you object to...to take even more control. My advice is from Davy Crockett - make sure you're right and then go ahead. Or from my old commanding general, essentially exactly the same advice. If you have an idea that you know is important to you, I suspect you'll find a lot of others who actually agree with you. But here's the catch: You'll derive more strength for your ideas from those who disagree and are willing to engage you with their reasoning. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
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