Why are "ideas" so threatening to some?

[packsaddle]

While we were arguing about a single word ('myth') in another thread, it reminded me of this old thread about entire ideas, not just single offending words. And when I revisited the thread, I realized that there is a perfect example of what Merlyn mentioned in his last response. I'll provide the link to a paper here in case anyone wants to read it. A good scientist, L.B. Slobodkin, long ago said and wrote some things that were demonstrably wrong. But they sounded good at the time and were seized on by the popular press and public almost as 'truths'. I still have to make corrections about these myths from time to time. But LBS quickly regretted the outcome and wrote this paper, not too long before he died. BTW, he was a good guy, had a great sense of humor, and made great contributions during his life. But even in this paper, he gets a few things wrong once in a while, IMHO. But the general cautionary tale is a good one.

http://www.eeb.uconn.edu/courses/EEB302/EverthingInHereAsOfJan2006/SlobodkinGoodBadReified.pdf

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Packsaddle,

 

I do not find ideas threatening but rudeness, out of disrespect, offensive.

[Tampa Turtle]

Packsaddle,

 

Let me rewind. I am not really sure what your point is. Are you generalizing about people. If we were around a campfire would you still say things that way? I just don't get it.

 

I am not afraid of ideas. I ran a research center of various disciplines at a university (biologists, anthropologists, geographers, urban designers). We had many interesting intra-displinary talks. The wars between the plant biologists and critter biologists went on and on.

 

Yes I am a christian and I believe in evolution. I have read all of Stephen Jay Gould's essay collections except his magnum opus, I have read Dawkins. I stick to my Dad's advice of subscribe to Scientific Americana and be happy if you understand one article. I have a father who was a die-hard atheist and a mother who was a minister. I have a wife who is a mathematician, computer scientist, and a pure-bible baptist. We have lots of muslim and hindu friends through my wife and I Jewish ones through me growing up in South Florida. My family is a bunch of yankee debators and I married into a family of die-hard southerners. So I get exposed to a LOT of ideas and yeah they slam into each other.

 

But that said words have power. And when you enter a discourse with people over certain topics -religion, sex, how fat they are -common sense says to tread with some tact and discretion. You gotta build trust. Humans are complicated and contradictory. I saw scientists who did treat their belief system in their area of expertise pretty much like a religion--you had the wrong "religion" you would never get tenure. But you must be very careful not to lump people into one category or other. (Same with those liberal or conservative labels)

 

In a civil society we have to agree to disagree. If asked we can reply truthfully. If an atheist asks me if I think he is going to hell, I will think and reply "yep. That is my belief". I then ask him what he thinks "Nope this is all there is". We can go deeper if we can maintain some civility. Such discourse can enrich us all. Give the other guy the benefit of a doubt and if he is touchy about a term or question give him some respect.

 

I gotta a co-worker, pretty nice guy but low people skills. Purposely will not be "PC" and go up to a bunch of a black folks and say "well I hope you aren't the ones still **** ing about slavery" or to jews "hey I don't want to hear about the Holocaust". Leaves a trail of misery in his path. He aint ever getting a promotion because it shows a lack of common sense.

 

I don't know if I am making any sense or I get your point.

[packsaddle]

Tampa Turtle,

While I can't make the objective claim that these forums are a representative cross-section of society (and probably aren't), I think most of us would agree that the members are of diverse backgrounds and ideas. [if someone disagrees with that, speak up]

 

I have, on many occasions, had the opportunity to objectively test reactions in public settings. These forums only differ in the medium and the fact that none of us can observe facial expressions or hear the subtleties of spoken words. And we can't all speak at once.

What I have observed in those settings, and I see no reason for it not to be true here as well, is that almost anything that is worth saying to the group is going to get different responses that can be categorized, loosely, into 'agreement', 'disagreement', 'laughter', 'anger', and 'offense'. Some of those categories obviously overlap.

 

The only way that I have found for all people not to be offended by something someone thinks...is for them never to experience those thoughts. This, I believe, is one good explanation for the phrase, "ignorance is bliss".

(Beavah, it isn't a deeply held religious belief but you're still free to label it a myth or whatever you like...I won't consider it disrespectful or offensive)

 

So I respond to you. These are only ideas. They don't have mass, they don't occupy space, and they can't draw blood. If you are offended by an idea, YOU have decided that outcome, not the idea. And as the offended party, you actually CAN draw blood. But if you do this, even if only in a figurative sense, that is your responsibility and not the fault of the idea. The idea is just an idea. The decision to act and the acts are yours, even if only to take offense.

 

Edit: Tampa Turtle, we crossed messages..one more difference between these forums and those other public venues.

Yes, I would (and do) say these things. In my department, I am far more ruthless in my criticism of ideas. But I am also fair. If someone disagrees and can give me objective reasons so that I can understand how I am wrong about something, I as quickly discard an idea. And BTW, because we all 'trust' that our attacks are on the ideas and not the persons, this unit has a very cohesive and collaborative atmosphere. A sense of humor helps as well.

 

Another Edit: OK, curiosity has the best of me again...so what did I write that offended you? I have no idea what you refer to. Please tell me it wasn't that thing about Santa Clause being dead.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Tampa Turtle]

Santa! Again! Now my must block all your posts!

 

Nah, it was the "myth" thing. And I think Beavah expressed it far better than my poor writing skill. And I am getting kinda tired of the whole subject anyway. Not with me handing out weapons and molotov cocktails to minors.

 

Just yesterday at the Troop Festivus celebration a scout shared his families faith tradition of the four turtles carrying the disk of earth on their back. He was quire reverent about it as part of his living the Oath and Law.