DanKroh 11 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 "Dan, no one celebrates the Pagan Samhain anymore?" Yes, people celebrate Samhain. I will be doing so Wednesday night. But that's it, the religious holiday is *Samhain*, not Halloween. Halloween didn't "evolve" from Samhain. Halloween is a secular holiday created out of whole cloth, whose entire purpose was originally to mock the Pagans and their Samhain celebrations. Nothing about Samhain resembles ANYTHING having to do with Halloween, except the same date. Lots of people mistakenly call what the ancient Celts celebrated "Halloween", but it's not the same thing as what is celebrated today. Calling Halloween a religious holiday is akin to calling Festivus a religious holiday, because it was created to mock Christmas. So that gives it a religious overtone, right? Is Groundhog Day religious because it also happens to fall on the same day as a Pagan holy day (Imbolc)? Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Dan, How does the Mexican "Day of the Dead' (1 November) relate to the two holidays? As far as I know, it's a nominally Christian holiday but with pre-Columbian pagan origins. The skeletons and similar imagery seem akin to our notion of Halloween, but is that a coincidence or by design? Link to post Share on other sites
beardad 12 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Kid's haven't been allowed to celebrate Halloween in school since the '90's. They aren't allowed to wear costumes to school, or have any in class parties, or put up halloween decorations. (as far as I know this hasn't been practiced since I was in school in the 80's) Any mention of Halloween at school is always refered to as harvest festival or some other nonsence. so in conclusing, all this is a non issue, becuase kids DON'T celebrate halloween at school. p.s Nowhere in the constitution does it not say schools can't celebrate a religious holiday. the constitution only states that there can be no government run/sponsored religion. Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Halloween is an antireligious holiday. Catholics used to celebrate All Saints Day with more fervor. They would dress up in the costume of their favorite saints. To mock them, some would dress up in hideous costumes on all hallows eve. This morphed into dressing up in scaring costumes. In the USA, the present tradition of "trick or treating" came about with the migration to suburbia in the 1950s. Before WWII, Halloween was not celebrated by so many and the ones that did were usually mischief makers (or worse) that vandalized and pulled other pranks/tricks unless they were bought off (treats). Thus, the "trick or treat" phrase. Now, the baby boom generation has co-opted the holiday as the third leading party day for adults (after the Super Bowl and New Year's Eve.) Link to post Share on other sites
BadenP 93 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 First for OGE, you are beginning to sound more and more like Merlyn in this thread, lol, I hope you are not trying to bait Ed now or we are in for another long debate. Most schools do not allow any sort of Halloween celebration so your tax dollars are safe, but some clever teachers can get around that with talk on variations of All Hallows Eve, Day of the Dead type celebrations which have their origin in "pagan" times and are widespread among many cultures today Christian and non Christian. Just as long as they don't mention Halloween or even Harry Potter they can squeak by. Happy Halloween!!! Link to post Share on other sites
GernBlansten 10 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Oh no, the war on Halloween has begun! This the season. How about a holiday jingle to get us in the mood. http://www.goblinville.com/pages/writings/lyrics/worms-crawl.htm The lyrics so we can all sing along... The Worms Crawl In Did you ever think, as a hearse goes by, That you might be the next to die? They wrap you up in a big white sheet, And bury you down about six feet deep They put you in a big black box, And cover you up with dirt and rocks, And all goes well, for about a week, And then the coffin begins to leak! The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, The worms play pinochle on your snout. They eat your eyes, they eat your nose, They eat the jelly between your toes. A great big worm with rolling eyes, Crawls in your stomach and out your eyes, Your stomach turns a slimy green, And pus pours out like whipping cream. You spread it on a slice of bread, And that's what worms eat when you're dead. Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 It's believed that Jack O'Lanterns have their roots in a folk tale from Ireland. Seems there was a man name Stingy Jack who agreed to have a drink with the Devil but didn't want to spend his money on the drink so he convinced the Devil to turn himself into a coin. Jack pocketed the coin next to a silver cross so the Devil couldn't escape and made the Devil promise not to bother Jack for a year or to claim his soul if he died. The next year, Jack got the Devil to climb a tree then carved a cross in the tree preventing the Devil from escaping. He let the Devil go only when the Devil promised not to bother him for 10 years and not to claim his soul if he died. Jack died during this ten years and God wouldn't take a trickster like him into heaven, and the Devil honored his promise not to bring him to the underworld. He sent Jack to roam in the dark world with a lit coal to light his way which Jack carried in a carved turnip. The Irish refered to this figure as Jack of the Lantern then later as Jack O'Lantern. The people of the British Isle would carve scary faces into turnips, potatoes or beets in honor of the tale. When those country folk started immigrating here, they discovered the Pumpkin made a perfect Jack O'Lantern. Halloween has been a completely secular holiday since the early 1900's, though most religious connotations had ended long before that in this country. Just as Thanksgiving, which had its start as a religious holiday (a day of thanksgiving to the Lord for the bounties of the harvest and rememberence of family and friends) has become a secular holiday. Many schools throughout the country now celebrate Halloween as a Fall Harvest Festival. If Halloween is any kind of "religious" holiday though, it is a holiday of the Catholic Church tradition - not of the Pagans. Calico Link to post Share on other sites
DanKroh 11 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Trev, I'm not sure how Day of the Dead relates, but here's my (semi-)educated opinion. I think it is probably more related to the Catholic holiday than the Pagan one (although the debate on whether or not the Catholic one is based on the Pagan one is for another time), and then tweeked with the local beliefs and customs. The native Pagan religions of the Americas don't really have any shared traditions with the European Pagan religions, but the Native American (both North and South) peoples were very heavily influenced by the Catholics who conquered them. Beardad, my sons' schools have celebrated Halloween since the oldest was in kindergarten. Youngest will have his class Halloween party this Friday. And our town still has a Halloween parade. CalicoPenn, that further shows that Jack-o-Lanterns have nothing to do with Samhain, since we have no Devil in our pantheon. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 OGE was right at the very beginning. This is a lark. "I see....dead people" but what I see is that you guys will argue about ANYTHING. And now I'm suspecting that you're all just a bunch of closet Unitarians. You DO KNOW, don't you, that all of these traditions and holidays are just a bunch of superstitious claptrap based on myth? Just excuses to party. Fun, to be sure, but not to be taken seriously. Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 dang... gotta admit, there are times I wish Rooster was still around, just to liven things up. I can imagine his fire and brimstone take on "the Devil's day" or some such ... Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 My kids celebrate Halloween in school and it is a religious holiday, All Hallows Eve the night before a big day, just as Christmas Eve is a religious holiday. According to Jack Horkheimer, the Star guy on PBS, that night crosses the oceans for a celebration relating to the dead. Chinese, Aztecs, Greek. Our current celebration isn't very religious but then our celebration of Christmas and Easter aren't very religious anymore either. Back to school and halloween. They still celebrate in some schools but you can't have swords or guns or scarey costumes. Not too many years ago, the school had the idiotic idea that you should dress in something related to a subject you are studying ("I'm Just a Bill"?). Link to post Share on other sites
funscout 11 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 The elementary schools in my area still let kids dress in costume and have a Halloween party at school. The kids get all sugared up at school, and then come home to get more candy when they go trick-or-treating! Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well, I believe that holidays should be FUN! And so I say HAPPY HALLOWEEN ! Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Here's an article on halloween & schools: http://www.reason.com/news/show/123222.html Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 It getting crazy! Can't celebrate Halloween in public schools! Can't celebrate Christmas in public schools! What's next? Festivus!!!! The "No one can do it because someone might be offended" crowd is going hog wild! Well, who cares! If ya don't like it tough! Get over it! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
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