skeptic 1014 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The anecdote about the world jambo reminded me of other changes in our BSA activities. At the occasion of my troops 80th anniversary, I received a few photos in the mail from the early 40's. They were sent by a 1945 Eagle, a salt of the earth man who still gives to the program in actual service at the camp. One of the photos was of a group of staffers from circa 1943 in the Sierras after camp was closed. As I pulled this 8 1/2 by 11 bw photo out, I began to see naked limbs of teenage boys. It turned out to be a very well posed, no "private parts" displayed, of the group on rocks next to the river. It brought to mind my growing up, when I learned to swim at the YMCA in the early 50's; Friday night was all male night, and skinny-dipping was allowed. Also, the locker room was simply male; there was no concern about impressionable boys seeing things they perhaps did not quite understand. Now, most high schools do not require showers after PE because they are afraid someone will be embarrassed or feel out of place. Which brings me to an occurence just last week at a cub day camp held on a Naval base. We went to the base pool, and had to enter through the mens locker room. You guessed it; there were naval personnel in the dressing area, and we found ourselves rushing a dozen 8 year olds through very quickly. Yet, we did not have to field any questions, or at least none that I know of. We come back to the issues discussed in the "Wimp" article. There is reason to be careful and protective of children; but we seem to have gone far beyond common sense and making normal life more difficult for our kids in many cases. They are not nearly as fragile as many would have you believe; and they often are far less bothered by the unusual or unknown than we fear. There needs to be a middle ground somewhere. Alot of it depends on us being rational enough to realize that participation in whatever we want is not possible. Sometimes we simply need to let it go, especially when to push it too far will simply destroy it completely. It took 20-30 years for the race issue to reach the point we now accept as status quo, and so could this one, referring to the Gay issue, not the God issue. But let's not "throw out the baby" by mistake. Personally, in regard to the Atheist part of this discussion, I simply cannot accept the idea that BSA should have to alter its basic tenets. If you do not like them, go some where else. You are not forced to be a scout or scouter. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Heh, heh, Gern, I'll address this to you because you're closer than anyone else in the thread right now. Oops, sorry, you too, Skeptic. I've posed something like this in the past. If, say, I decided in my middle age that a change of life was in order...or perhaps that I was attracted to men but only in the role as a woman...and I went through the full monte to become a complete (sort of ) transexual...(and let me tell you, I'd be a good one too! Oh baby, I'd turn heads!), would that pesky Y chromosome kill my chances with BSA? Or would simply the choice to be a transexual kill my chances, say, to be a den mother? After all, physically at least, my attractions AND my actions, if any, would still be heterosexual, right? Should be OK unless I read BSA policy wrong. What's that? Moral absolutism was just run over by a train? I mean, if I did the operations and the hormone treatments and the counseling and training, and I never did anything with anyone - but Ed found me attractive.....? Which one of us would be, you know, immoral? Why? or Why not? It really comes back to the essence of the orignal topic of this thread. BSA's policies on these things are SENSATIONAL. Think about it, SEX and the SUPERNATURAL! I'm hard-pressed to think of a juicier combination (OK, maybe the Bible) and BSA plays right into those grimy journalistic hands every time they press their thumbs down on private lives. Moreover, a little more detail is in order. Is this whole BSA pre-occupation with sex and sexual orientation merely a matter of which parts are mated, or given my sex-change are we going to need a karyotype as well to make sure of the truth in advertising for those parts? And how are you going to know WHO to test, I mean I'm going to be goooood! Fact is, it's none of anyones d*** business, including BSA's, Ed's, Brent's, and mine for that matter, as long as lovely packsachet doesn't favor them with her charms (although, let me tell you it'd be worth it if she did! ). As a matter of fact, I believe that once in the not too distant past I WAS 'outed' in these forums...what can I say, the operation must have been a hack job. But what if it had been true? Or maybe it was and I pulled it off successfully! Actually, none of you can ever really be quite certain one way or the other, can you? About ANY of us, really. Why is it that so many of us seem to take some kind of sexually-repressed, WASP-like, pleasure in judging other people to be immoral, or inferior just because of some difference? Ignorance and fear are the only answers I can think of. Any others? XOXOXOXO Edited part: Hey Trevorum! Top THAT!(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Oh my! I think I'm in love! Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Growing up in a Irish Catholic family sex wasn't something that was talked about at the dinner table. Even Sex Education in school was taught by people brought in from the local Health Department. I have to admit to not being very comfortable talking about sex with anyone. I sure as heck wouldn't want to discuss it with other peoples children. Having said that I do feel that any kid who watches TV after 8:00 PM has been exposed to a lot of sexual content. They don't need anyone telling them about being Gay or Straight -They know that stuff already!! But is there any real difference between a gay leader talking inappropriately about sex, than there is with a straight leader talking inappropriately about sex? Both in my book are in the wrong. I wonder what will happen when more and more of the organizations that charter units start to become more accepting of gays and homosexuals and start seeing the BSA stand point as being wrong? Ea. Link to post Share on other sites
LongHaul 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 >>Having said that I do feel that any kid who watches TV after 8:00 PM has been exposed to a lot of sexual content. They don't need anyone telling them about being Gay or Straight -They know that stuff already!! Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Never had the urge for guys, Gern, only girls! Link to post Share on other sites
GernBlansten 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Me neither Ed. Never faced the Choice myself. Why do you think TJ did? Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I think the 13th point of the scout law should be a scout is asexual... I wouldnt want Tim discussing homosexuality with cub scouts anymore than I would want merit badge counselors regaling scouts with tales of heterosexual exploits. But the central question I asked and I wandered from ( I admit) is the reconciliation between respecting one religion's belief that homosexuality is wrong and another's that it's ok. Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Dunno Gern. TJ are you willing to answer this question? Link to post Share on other sites
GernBlansten 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Seems the primary objection to homosexuals serving in our ranks is the exposure to their children of the "Agenda". So wouldn't it be equally disturbing to have someone like myself who is sympathetic to the "Agenda" serving in the ranks? Shouldn't we weed out like minded individuals to protect the children? Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 OK, OGE, if no one else will, I'll address your question. Perhaps the answer to the question of reconciliation can be answered historically. Can you identify examples where sharply-opposed religious beliefs have been reconciled? Maybe those could be used as models for this conflict. Link to post Share on other sites
LongHaul 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Several times now I seen reference to a not wanting a leader to discuss homosexuality with a cub scout. Is "Age appropriate" just a term we use in Chicago? Can someone tell me just what degree of... I can't even think of how to word this! Why would you find it necessary to discuss sexual anything with a cub scout? Sexual abuse yes but only to the degree that you need to decide who to report it to. I'm associated with a Pack in a VERY liberal area. I've been told by most of the parents that they are opposed to the gay ban and a few actually asked if the Pack could openly announce to the boys that while National opposes gay rights (their words not mine) our Pack believes that there is nothing wrong with being gay. I'm not like packsaddle, in another thread he has described the lengths he has gone to to try and work with a "misguided" SM concerning an Eagle project. Packsaddle is a far better man than I in that respect. I do not tolerate fools well, and if those parents had not approached me at a Pack night where boys and other leaders were present I'd have gone nuclear. IMO you don't discuss sex in any way shape or form with Cub scouts. LongHaul Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Longhaul, Have you heard about the books some school systems are using to teach "cultural diversity?" Kindergarten students get "Who's In A Family" while 2nd Graders get "King & King", a fairy tale about two princes who fall in love and marry, and kiss at the end. Age appropriate? I don't think so. We sure don't see those books in the schools where I live. Link to post Share on other sites
DanKroh 11 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 "Have you heard about the books some school systems are using to teach "cultural diversity?" Kindergarten students get "Who's In A Family" while 2nd Graders get "King & King", a fairy tale about two princes who fall in love and marry, and kiss at the end." Don't miss the sequel, "King & King & Family".... "Age appropriate? I don't think so." What exactly in the books did you find to be NOT age-appropriate, Brent? You have read them, right? Although I thought the writing was a bit sub-par, I thought the ideas were presented in very age-appropriate language. It is quite possible to talk about diversity and tolerance of homosexuality and non-traditional families without expressing any sexual content. My sons have both been taught acceptance of the GLBT community, and neither one has the slightest clue about the mechanics of any of it. What they do know is that their godfathers are no different from any other married couple in all the important ways. And yes, I trust either of them to take my boys camping or anywhere else without me. "We sure don't see those books in the schools where I live." More's the pity.... Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Dan, I'll get back to you on that subject, but no time right now. I'm off to staff a Wood Badge course. Y'all have fun without me! Brent Link to post Share on other sites
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