Speak out and get ousted - no free speech in BSA

[jkhny]

"All I can say is the situation you describe might as well be on Mars. It certainly isn't the situation I see in Atlanta, nor anywhere else. "

 

So all those missing disadvantage youth - 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 depending on the number originally cited - were an honest misunderstanding. Larkin resigned why?

 

All the news reports about enrollment fraud are sheer fabrications.

 

Some just don't see anything they don't want to see........ and BSA is SO successful that it just keeps losing members......

 

As another noted, would the management team in charge of a corporation with SO many serious issues - that have attracted the press and law enforcement - remain in place anywhere else? (except for the federal government as another pointed out)

 

When you have to make excuses for things like Alabama, Idaho, Sovreign Smith, and more, it's time to step back and take a long objective look - something is very, very wrong.

 

[BrentAllen]

jkh,

I don't know why I even bother trying to explain things to you. You are either incapable of understanding, or you don't want to understand.

 

Yes, the numbers in Atlanta were incorrect, due to a number of issues. Mostly due to DE's forging numbers for their performance reviews. For the 99th time, the BSA does not track Scouts by race or income level. Even now, you cannot get a group to describe what is meant by "disadvantaged" youth. When the United Way asked for income and race numbers, the AAC told them they didn't collect that info. They came up with a plan to estimate those numbers based on census track data. Once they started digging into those numbers, they found some DE's, who are no longer employed at the AAC, were listing bogus numbers.

Those bogus numbers have no impact on how our unit or the rest of the units in the AAC operate. IT simply does not affect us.

 

The professional staff does not treat the volunteers like "employees". They treat us like they work for us. Yes, the situation you describe might as well be on Mars. The professional Scouters in the AAC are very courteous and very professional. They go out of their way to help us succeed. Sorry your experience hasn't been the same. Often times you get what you give.

[mgkaiser]

Despite what Mr. Hampton says, he did actively solicit offers for the camp and is continuing to do so despite the pending lawsuit.

 

Mr. Hampton did not consult the Executive Comittee before dismissing Colonel "Red Dog" Maynard. Rather he attempted to do it sumarily and ulilaterally. It was only after the fact that the Executive Council pointed out to Mr. Hampton that a vote was required. Said vote is to be held Wednesday.

 

The Manatee County seat on the executive committee is NOT vacant. It is filled by an individual whom I correspond with or speak to on a near daily basis. This individual is very dedicated and very involved with the running of the Manatee Council. But this is only one vote. Generally the "Two Rivers" district which represents Sarasota, Desoto, and Charlotte counties agrees with Manatee County, however they also only hold one seat and therefore one vote. A total of 9 members on the Executive Comittee represent Lee County, the county where the Council seat is. The entire Executive Committe is listed on www.savecfe.org . So, as you see, despite the seat being filled by a dedicated individual, the vote is near meaningless given the rest of the committee.

 

There are 5 members from Manatee county on the Executive Board. Again, the entire board is listed on www.savecfe.org But again, the board is weighted heavily from Lee County. Since the board selects members of the board, it is very hard to tip these numbers. It's not due to a shortage of volunteers.

 

"Everything has it's price". Not so. Some things are irreplacable. Before I could support a sale of Camp Flying Eagle at any price I would need to know what the program would gain from it. Even with $20 million or $30 million, there is no piece of property to be had that matches the camp at any price anywhere in the Council. There's lots of tomato fields, orange groves and cow pastures. Any remaining riverfront, heavily forrested property is either a state park, or gone. The Southern end of the council borders on the Everglades. There's a couple of nice State parks we could have the use of part time, but we already have the use of them part time. And there's Camp Miles in the south, which we already have. Southwest Florida is a council that is solidly in the black. We run a pretty good cash surplus every year for the past 10 years (As little as $30k, as much as $100k), but it means we're running the program and paying the bills and have a bit left over in the end. We have $11.5 million in assets, some $300k in ready cash, the rest in endowments, so although we cannot touch the principal on some of that, we earn $100k or more per year on investment income. In short, there is no financial need to sell the camp.

 

Without a financial need to sell the camp or any proposed purchase that would benefit the program, what good is the cash? It looks good on the SE's performance review, but what benefit does it do the program?

 

Sunnyland vs SWFL is old news. What matters is the need of the boys in the program TODAY. If you advocate plowing under 180 acres of pristine forrest because of a 20 year old grudge, you don't belong in Scouting...

[BrentAllen]

kaiser,

Since you have appointed yourself as determining who should and shouldn't be in Scouting, please list the name of any poster here who has advocated selling the property. Any other criteria you would like to make up to judge our worthiness on?

Our Council owns several camps. The most popular one, Camp Woodruff, is not located in our Council - it is located in north Georgia, near the North Carolina border. Sometimes you have to think outside the box...

If your one dedicated leader can't convince the others to vote in favor of Red Dog, then he will be out on Wednesday. Hard for me to imagine the board, made up of fellow Scouters, would vote to remove him unless there was some serious wrong-doing. I know I wouldn't.

I've read the correspondence on the savecfe website. Some of it is pretty nasty. If your side thinks they are going to win any votes for Maynard by hurling insults at Council leadership, I'm afraid they are going to get just the opposite.

[packsaddle]

In case no one else has said this already, welcome to the forums, mgkaiser. Nice to have you here.

[mgkaiser]

Hey PackSaddle, thanks for the greeting.

 

Brent, Perhaps I've been a bit harsh. I really do not know you and I jumped the gun on judging. You don't know the area down here fully and therefore don't fully understand the issue.

 

The Manatee District is really 2 distinct areas with sharply different demographics. Previously the entire district was rather low income, participated poorly, and fell short on FOS donations. We still do not fully pull our weight, but we are improving. East Manatee, the area where my Pack is and the area where Camp Flying Eagle is, is a fast growing, wealthy region. The problem is that many of the FOS donations are being made on the contingent that CFE not be sold. This is not a result of the lawsuit, but a result of the rumors (and actuall offers that have been entertained) that CFE will be sold. This problem has existed since 1995 or earlier. (1995 is the first time I can find it documented.) I am taking an active roll in recruitment, not just for my Pack, but for all East Manatee Packs. I'm currently focusing on Cub Scouts, but I hope to get involved on the Troop level or get somebody who better understands that level to help me. The point is that enrollment is already up and is likely to be WAY up next year. FOS donations are coming. And there is no financial reason to sell the camp. If we could just get an agreement from Council that NO offer would be entertained for at least 5 years, we could have the best darn region in the council.

 

But I NEED Camp Flying Eagle to do it.

 

I am moving forward to meet these enrollment goals. Many of my plans to meet these goals will also open up contacts that should yield FOS donations in the future. But this will all take time. A year to show some progress. More to reach it's full potential.

 

I currently hold no official position, but I have made my ideas known to district and offered my time to make them a reality.

 

This is what I mean by running things from the bottom up.

[FScouter]

If we could just get an agreement from Council

 

Council as a proper name implies an entity unto itself, them as opposed to us. A council is not them. Consider rather that a council is a gathering of districts, each of which is a gathering of troops. The difference in using the term Council versus the council of which I am a part is profound.

[mgkaiser]

Slip of the tonuge (or finger as the case may be). By "council" I really mean "guys in Ft. Myers"..... I do not have a problem with the professional Scouters. Love my DE. I run my Pack the best I can. I help in Council and District events. I am becoming more active in my disctrict. I have only been doing this 3 years, but I am taking on more and more. I fully get that we ALL are the council. But a few or the top officials in Ft. Myers do not agree. THEY are the ones who foster the feeling that it's an us and them thing. I'm doing my part. I do more each year and I don't intend to slow down.

[capnwhizz]

I am one of Mr. Kaiser's bad guys in Fort Myers, and I am having a hard time reading these posts and seeing the misinformation that is being disseminated. As one of the "businessmen with little Scouting experience" mentioned in a previous post, I first want to provide some information about my Scouting resume, which is typical of the Southwest Florida Council Executive Committee.

 

I have two sons who are Eagle Scouts, the youngest now 21. I was a Tiger parent, a den leader and a Webelos leader for both boys. I spent 11 years as an Assisstant Scoutmaster while they were in their troop in Fort Myers. During that time I was an Assisstant Scoutmaster for a National Jamboree Contingent, took courses at Philmont, taught courses at Philmont, lead a council contingent and a troop contingent on two different treks to Philmont, plus did all of the typical summer camps and weekend camping.

 

I have also served as a District Chairman, Vice President of Program and I am now Vice President of Physical Resources. I have been on the Executive Committee for Southwest Florida Council since 1993, and went through the process of taking over Sunnyland Coucnil after it failed, and was part of the committee that hired the current SE of the council.

 

While Mr. Kaiser likes to use the term "evil" to describe the members of the Executive Committee of our council, I have known many of these people for years. They are all dedicated volunteers trying to what is best for Scouting in Southwest Florida. Most are successful business professionals, and as such are not going to be patsies for the Scout Executive. I can gaurantee that the Executive Committee and the Executvie Board run our council, and that the SE follows our lead.

 

I understand that Mr. Kaiser and others think they know what is going on, but they seem to be motivated by emotion and rumor. There has never been a solicited offer for Camp Flying Eagle, no submitted offered was ever accepted, and there is no plan to sell the camp. However, no board could fulfill its fiduciary duty to a council by not at least reviewing and discussing offers submitted.

 

The actions taken by "Red Dog" Maynard with regard to the suit filed against the council and his promoting a rezoning of the property, lowering the value of the camp by millions, cause serious damage to Scouting throughout the Southwest Florida Council. Mr. Maynard has chosen to operate outside of typical Scouting channels and procedures without once offering to work with the Executive Committee. He could at any time have asked to talk with any or all of the Executive Committee, and we would have been more than willing to hear and discuss his ideas about how to keep Camp Flying Eagle a viable tool for Scouting in the Council. He chose, for his own reasons, to work outside of the program, resulting in a significant amount of harm to Scouting in Southwest Florida, in my opinion. This does not reflect the actions of someone loyal to Scouting, but those of someone with his own agenda.

 

While I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with the action of the board or executive committee,to use terms like evil and bad guys doe not further your cause. While you may not want to admit to it, we all want what is best for Scouting.

[SR540Beaver]

WOW!!! Welcome to the forms capnwhizz! I for one would like to encourage you to participate in our little virtual campfire and continue to bring us a perspective that is missing here. Most of us here are folks at the unit level with a few former DE's. Your participation could sure shed some light on a host of questions we have from time to time about how the business and politics of a council function. Of course, with all of your scouting experience, we'd also welcome your input on all other topics.

[BrentAllen]

Capnhizz's Scouting resume sounds very similar to the resumes of Executive Board members found in Atlanta. Long histories in Scouting, successful business professionals - dedicated, qualified individuals. The exact opposite of any description offered by jkh. Thank goodness there are only a few individuals here who buy into the bunk sold by jkh. Maybe even those few will start to see the light...

[DougD]

Bill (capnwhizz),

 

I have to take issue with much of your posting.

 

Quote:

I understand that Mr. Kaiser and others think they know what is going on, but they seem to be motivated by emotion and rumor. There has never been a solicited offer for Camp Flying Eagle, no submitted offered was ever accepted, and there is no plan to sell the camp. However, no board could fulfill its fiduciary duty to a council by not at least reviewing and discussing offers submitted

End Quote

 

Emotion and rumor? You're a member of the savecfe.org site. There is a profound LACK of emotion and rumor. The site's purpose is to educate people by presenting the FACTS. The news reports, in their entirety, are posted along with crediting links. If those are "emotion and rumor", I'd suggest you have to take issue with the varied reporters providing this news.

 

As for fiduciary responsibility, does not an obligation associated with the land gift bear consideration? Land gifted for perpetuity does not become land worthy of "listening to offers" for the sale thereof. Again, is this emotion and rumor, or is this documented fact in meeting minutes from the MCBDA?

 

 

Quote:

The actions taken by "Red Dog" Maynard with regard to the suit filed against the council and his promoting a rezoning of the property, lowering the value of the camp by millions, cause serious damage to Scouting throughout the Southwest Florida Council. Mr. Maynard has chosen to operate outside of typical Scouting channels and procedures without once offering to work with the Executive Committee. He could at any time have asked to talk with any or all of the Executive Committee, and we would have been more than willing to hear and discuss his ideas about how to keep Camp Flying Eagle a viable tool for Scouting in the Council. He chose, for his own reasons, to work outside of the program, resulting in a significant amount of harm to Scouting in Southwest Florida, in my opinion. This does not reflect the actions of someone loyal to Scouting, but those of someone with his own agenda.

End Quote

 

It would seem that Red Dog's actions were taken as the result of a Council not willing to listen to the voices of the community. The uproar related to selling the camp began long before any legal action did. Does the value of the land matter? Taxes are not being paid on the land, and even if they were, lower value would be beneficial to Council operating funds. The land, as gifted, is not intended for sale. How does value therefore matter? The ONLY potential value in that would be as an appraised value for equity lending. His actions show great loyalty to the Scouts of the area, to the community, and to the intent of the organization that donated the property. Council's actions appear contrary to these.

 

You have publicly made your presence known on savecfe, yet have not responded to any questions. I've asked for simple detail as to your position with Council and what it truly means. Surely you've seen the question.

 

I've asked on several occasions that Council actually enroll and participate. Communication between Council and the Manatee County Scouting community is horribly absent. Here is a tool that can help repair that. I have requested that any communications to Council be professional, courteous and polite. I would maintain that same decorum on the site.

 

Several direct and clear questions to various Council members have been posed, and subsequently ignored. Instead, a post appears here away from the main source of the discussion at hand?

 

I'm not hiding behind anything. In fact, I don't hide behind any cryptic name whatsoever on the site, or here. I have nothing to hide, I want the discussions to be open, honest, and out in the open.

 

FOr the record as well, Colonel Maynard's actions are not costing the Council funds, Council's actions are. The entire matter can cease causing expense if Council drops their resistance to the case and stops threatening legal action against the County as well.

[BrentAllen]

LACK of emotion and rumor on savecfe.com?? You must be kidding!?!? Are you reading the same page I am??

 

Calls for the removal of the SE, comparing the situation to Iraq? Some letter writers even state they had to cool off for a couple of days before writing. It's obvious others couldn't wait.

The atmosphere there is definitely anti-Council, especially with jkh posting his anti-BSA rants under "a friend." I don't blame any Council staff or Board members for avoiding the site like the plague.

[LongHaul]

Welcome Capnwhizz,

I is always benifical to any discussion to have both sides of an issue represented. In reading your post I had the same question DougD asks, that being "Who does lowering the value of property by millions cause serious damage to Scouting in the Southwest Florida Council?" If the land is not for sale it's value is intrinsic not material. It's still the same camp it was before the suit. Please explain.

LongHaul

[capnwhizz]

To answer Longhaul's question, the council has had discussions over the past several years with the local water management district and the county in which the camp is located, hoping to negotiate a sale of the development rights to the camp to one of these government agencies. This could have resulted in several million dollars of income to the council, while keeping the camp just as it is. It would also have done away with offers from developers.

 

If the rezoning is successful, we will have no development rights to sell. With that ongoing, and with the lawsuit file by the MCBDA, no one is interested in talking with us now. They get the development rights for free.