British Scouting changes oath

[mmhardy]

Amen Backpacker..I've got three boys in the program and they are 3rd generation Scouters. If National does not get in gear in short order it will not go into further generations. What a shame that would be. Maybe it would be better if we were smaller and more focused.

[Oak Tree]

I'd be interested in seeing some of the numbers broken down into categories. Of course, given that we can't trust the top level numbers, it's mostly just a wish, but I'll hypothesize anyway. First, the basic premise...

 

John Leo had a column in US News & World Report sometime back about how organizations are tending to become either liberal or conservative. The column wasn't about Scouting, but talked about groups like the NEA, and how they end up taking liberal positions that have nothing to do with teaching. Many national churches have experienced this, and have split at the national level into conservative and liberal wings. In the case of churches, the liberal branch is what is often called "mainstream Protestantism".

 

And even though there are obviously conservative teachers, and conservative Episcopals, and liberal Baptists, those people don't make up the majority and don't seem to have much influence on setting policy in their organizations.

 

The interesting thing in the church growth area is that the liberal, mainstream churches are pretty much all shrinking. You might think that the more open, tolerant attitude would attract more people, but it actually appears that the more demanding denominations, the ones that are more likely to say "X is wrong", are the ones that are growing.

 

Boy Scouting has clearly chosen the more conservative side of the equation. So my hypothesis would be that Scouting is probably doing all right, numerically, where the chartering orgs are chuches, and particularly conservative denominations. But I'd guess that sponsorship among more liberal organizations (let's say PTO's/schools, for example) would be coming down. Our district units are now overwhelmingly chartered by churches.

 

So while the overall numbers may come down a bit as some of the liberal units fold, the core conservative base will remain strong. Changing some of policies at the national level - things that might alienate the conservative base - would be more likely to engender an even greater dropoff.

 

Hey, it's a theory.

 

Oak Tree

[juris]

This is a DISCLAIMER. ( p0st # 41 ) I never wrote that article..."Leave religious fanatics out of Scouting " I am very upset over this ! (@#%$^&+ )

Could some one have used my secret ID, to write this ? Here are some of my reasoss why it is not mine :

 

1...It has Good grammer and spelling.( I can't write nor spell correctly )

2...I never claimed to be a former Eagle Scout, nor A Scout executive. ( I did mention in some other format that I worked proffesionaly )

3...I am a religious person, but I would never write this .

4...I sign all my statements with ( juris,www )

and this one is not signed with my logo.

 

Would the moderator, or the cencor investigate this. Thanks, Juris,www

 

 

 

 

[OneHour]

Trev,

 

You indicated that "Buddhists do not believe in God. Buddha was a teacher not a deity. To this extent, Buddhists are atheistic (godless)."

 

I'm a buddhist and I would agree with portion of the statement that "Buddha was a teacher" and I do believe that Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, etc, were as well; however, the majority of buddhists in the world worship the Buddha as though he is a deity of sort, asking him for guidance and teaching, striving to become enlightening so that they could be in nirvana (heaven of sort), etc, eventhough he is no longer with the livings. Isn't that the same as a Christian would have done in the name of Jesus? Different variations of Buddhism believe in different deities in addition to Buddha.

 

Granted that Buddhism has been classified as atheistic religion by the religious experts. Maybe the definition of "God" is not translated in the same meaning. According to the dictionary: God - A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. Anyway that a Buddhist looks at this definition ... he is definitely not "godless!" ... at least for this Buddhist anyway!

 

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[Trevorum]

OneHour, I certainly defer to you and Kahuna on this matter. I was merely trying to remind Ed of the wide diversity of belief systems that are under the BSA umbrella. Too often, the majority tends to forget about us minorities: Jews, Buddhists, UUs, Wiccans, etc.

[Kudu]

> the majority of Buddhists in the world worship the Buddha as though

> he is a deity of sort, asking him for guidance and teaching, striving to

> become enlightening so that they could be in nirvana (heaven of sort),

> etc, eventhough he is no longer with the livings.

 

Well, if religion means anything, it means not to trust the majority of any population. The majority of Christians seem to believe that kicking little agnostic kids out of Scouting makes Jesus happy. That is about as far from the compassion that Buddha taught, as it is from the simple Gospel of love that Jesus taught. At least while he was still alive on Earth.

 

In the Rinzai and Soto schools of Buddhism, asking some deity for guidance, teaching, or enlightenment is considered a distraction from your practice, an illusion, and just plain lazy.

 

It's like praying to Jesus for a base hit.

 

And you don't hear a lot of Buddhist sermons about how "no member can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing an obligation to God," now do you?

 

When the first missionaries landed in Japan, Buddhist priests were the first to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, just because they were curious about these people with the round eyes. Does that mean that they "believed" in Jesus? Belief, disbelief, the mind of a true Buddhist is like a mirror: what is reflected is not really the essence of the mirror.

 

Like a mirror, the mind does not get dirty when it reflects "duty to God," or "there is no God." But the "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship"? Come on, is that what they teach in your Sangha?

 

> Different variations of Buddhism believe in different deities in addition

> to Buddha.

 

Buddha is not a deity. He was a sleepy human being who became a fully awakened human being, then taught other human beings how to awaken.

 

It is inevitable that over the course of thousands of years, popular Buddhism would pick up a few local pond and stream gods along the way, in the same way that Christianity incorporated a bunch of pagan stuff too. I mean, where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born on December 25th?

 

Let us remember the original meaning of Christmas which is Saturnalia.

 

At any rate, you won't find many Buddhists debating the existence of God because it just clouds the mind. But making Buddhist kids say that they have a duty to God is about the same as beating up Amish kids because you know they won't fight back.

 

You will always win, but someone should stop you.

 

 

[OneHour]

Kudu ... no argument with your explanation of Buddhism! Man ... you sound like the Reverent Monk at our temple.

 

I just don't like to be lumped into the same group as those who do not believe in any religion. I have no problem (nor my sons) saying the portion of "duty to God." To us, what it really meant is the duty to our religion, practice it and practice it well. What goat me is the Amen portion of the prayer (even in the Philmont Grace).

 

Trev ... I understand completely! The great thing about religions (any religion) is that they all teach about living correctly ... something similar to the Scout law and oath. In our troop, we have all major religions present and accounted for (minus a few) and the kicker is that we are chartered by a Methodist Church, a great CO!

 

By the way Kudu, once upon a time (about 30 years ago), this Buddhist kid got picked on. He didn't fight back at first, but then he did defend himself! (This message has been edited by OneHour)