Just Vapor in the Wind

[SemperParatus 1]

Warning - This is a long, rambling post that represents a work-in-process in my life.

 

All of this talk about God in scouting has really got me thinking lately.

 

My religious training and experience is entirely Christian, spanning Roman Catholicism, Presbyterian and Evangelical. I make it a point to get into Gods word everyday in seeking a deeper and more meaningful relationship with Him. Prayer is a big part of my life, but what I have come to realize is that it is in my interaction with other people that the glory of God is revealed.

 

I am a woeful sinner and know my salvation is only through the beautiful sacrificial gift of Jesus Christ. I cannot fathom the ugliness of my sins when compared to the incredible majesty, righteousness and perfection of God. Sometimes it is easy to think Im not all that bad, especially when I compare myself to the nuts on Jerry Springer. But then it strikes me time and again, God is not comparing me to the nuts on Jerry Springer it is against his perfection that we are all compared and all fall short. We all fall short, regardless of whether our sin is just a little bitty sin or a great big fat one. I dont think God cares about how we as humans view the severity of our sins and rank them on our grading scale of good to bad. He just loves each one of us, like a father, and wants each one of us to know and love Him back. Some choose to turn their backs on God, denouncing his existence. God loves these wayward sheep all the more and gives us all the most simplistic command to do the same and love one another not just those that agree with us and think like us and act like us and look like us but all people. When Jesus came to earth, he didnt hang with the priests and the religious behind the temple walls, he hung with the lost the nonbelievers, tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers and a whole host of outcasts. The model of Jesus is one of living in the world in all of its ugliness and bringing joyful love into relationships with all people, not cloistering yourself behind closed doors.

 

Sometimes, God becomes an afterthought in my life, as the pressures of living crowd into my mind. Looking around, I am sure that is the case with the majority of humanity. But God is no afterthought. He is the creator of the heavens, the earth and you. He is holy and perfect beyond our feeble human comprehension. He knows you better than you know yourself and has incredible plans for your eternal life. And yet, somehow we believe that we are honoring this incomparable, supreme power that can reverse the powers of the universe with a simple wink of an eye through thoughtless platitudes of reference to Him in pledges of allegiance, scout promises and scout laws. To me, it feels more and more like giving a short shrift to God. Thinking as long as we add the word God to our dutiful human professions, we are being right with God is a far cry from being right with God. It is mere talk and talk is cheap. God doesnt want our platitudes. God wants us, all of us and everything we do.

 

Does God care about the BSA? I doubt it. Does the BSA care about God? Well, the folks at National certainly want to maintain the perception that it does. But isnt it just that, all impression with no substance. Someone indicated the thought that scouting would be shallow without God in it. God is in it because people are in it, regardless of whether we say a scout is reverent or not. In fact, the wishy-washy quasi-religion of the BSA which says all gods are okey-dokey may be offensive to the one true God. Just what is it we are doing when we recite the promise or the law or the pledge of allegiance, with the miniscule reference to God? I would venture to say there is the brief split-second when the word is uttered (typically mindlessly) and we move on. Does that really honor the omnipotent creator of the universe and your loving father? Is that what He REALLY wants? Is that giving him the respect and love that He wants from you? To me, its just another word to say, the real meaning and expression is in my heart not in my mouth. If anything it seems like the BSA is contributing to a shallowing of God. Man, we should be falling on our faces in complete humility and worship of this incredible being that has given us life, love and each other. Instead, we have somehow equated mumbling a few god words now and then as a religious expression of our deep devotion to Him. I would venture to say that the average troop spends less than 1 hour a year (and thats generous) engaged in some kind of devotion to an any god. Is that the best we can offer? If we cant do it right, then why bother pretending to do it at all.

 

I think God deserves better. He would be honored more by our following the model of Jesus Christ in our actions and relationships then by our mere words and professions. I think that is where the BSA has a disconnect. Saying god once in a while and having people sign a statement that they recognize a god is just fine and dandy at a surface level, but that is all it isjust skimming the surface. If we want a relationship with God, we need to establish relationships with his children (you and me). Deep, loving and caring relationships that goes beyond the surface of what we look like, where we come from, what we believe in, who or what we have sex with, and which god (if any) we worship. If the BSA truly wants to promote a belief in God, then there is only one way to do it and that is by not hiding behind closed doors and mindlessly speaking a few phrases, but opening those doors wide so that it is possible for everyone to come together in a deeper understanding of one another based on mutual love and respect.

 

Im not sure this completely captures my thoughts, but it will have to do for now. I am sure some will have a field day picking this apart from either a theological point of view or a practical perspective. Have at it, because I suppose in the end it really does not matter at all.

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Semper,

 

This is just a wonderful post, and it capture your beliefs very well.

 

Your particular beliefs and your comments about how they should be inserted into Scouting are part of the issue that swirls around Scouting all the time in regards to God/gods. Your beliefs define a particular "God" and the way "he" should be treated within a Scouting environment. That's all well and good, but there are a lot of people who believe in a "God/god" and there are many different definitions that quantify that God for them. Who's to choose which definition and set of practices to use?

 

I have to admit that while I was raised Catholic, I'm pretty much at the point that, while I continue to agree with the theological beliefs, the organization itself, and organized religion in general, does as much harm as good. I agree with your assessment that many people treat their God as a sort of afterthought. I've always felt closer to God during my times in the mountains than I usually do in church, surrounded by people who walk out the door and forget about God until same time, next week.

 

Scouting should be non-sectarian; particular religious beliefs should not enter into Scouting, and yet special interests have pretty obviously held sway. That is, I think, unfortunate.

[Scoutndad 10]

Ah...now you're talking my language.

 

Great post Semper...that is what originally started my quandry with the Agnostic Parent.

 

I am also Catholic and have been raised as such, but I think a non-sectarian approach in BSA would be a welcome change and still allow those with strong spiritual relationships, to flourish by achieving their various emblems of faith. I hear that earning the Catholic religious medals as a Boy Scout and Venturer are no "walks in the park" and they shouldn't be...but this is optional and as my Cub Scout finishes up his Parvuli Dei, I recognize that not every scout "practices" in the same way, but I look on in admiration at the scouts who DO go one step beyond scouting to earn these medals and display them proudly when they get the chance...

But make no mistake, one persons worship on a mountaintop is anothers prayer inside a church.

 

Thanks for the great thread...but needs a better title, I thought it was about gas mileage...lol

[Trevorum 24]

Semper,

 

Your theology has given you a solidly functional worldview and I know the scouts in your unit benefit from your leadership.

 

In your imaginative thought experiment on another thread you suggested that the word "thoughtful" might replace "reverent", thus implying that there are people for whom the two concepts are interchangeable. I didn't reply there, but "humility" is closer to how I interpret "reverence". I feel that scouting should attempt no instruction in theology but should nonetheless teach humility in the face of that-which-is-greater-than-ourselves.

 

Your name for this is "God" and like many people you believe in a personified deity. Your beliefs, however fervent and heartfelt, are nonetheless no more truthful or cosmic or moral than those of our Zoroastrian friend or the Dalai Lama. But that doesn't matter of course, as you have rightly observed. What matters is that we treat our fellow human beings with humility and live lives of reverence.

 

BSA, while organized and operated for the most part by those within the Judeo-Christian-Islamic world view, is still for all young men, however they interpret the numinous.

[SemperParatus 1]

"Your particular beliefs and your comments about how they should be inserted into Scouting are part of the issue that swirls around Scouting all the time in regards to God/gods. Your beliefs define a particular "God" and the way "he" should be treated within a Scouting environment. That's all well and good, but there are a lot of people who believe in a "God/god" and there are many different definitions that quantify that God for them. Who's to choose which definition and set of practices to use?"

 

Perhaps the clarity of thought was lost in my musings. If God wants to be a member of the BSA, let him sign up in whatever way He chooses. Open the door and God may reveal himself to us. Some may call that non-sectarian, I would call it letting God be God. Definition and practices are meaningless when God really comes knocking at your heart. The BSA should get out of the God business, and stick with scouting. I think God knows how to run his own shop.

 

I recognize the incredible variety of belief systems and acknowledge that at the end of days I could very well be disappointed, that is why I am not advocating treating God in any particular way within a scouting environment. Let God worry about these details, if you truly trust Him.

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

I agree one zillion billion per cent. Now, if we could only get BSA to agree.... :-)

[Eagledad 2792]

>>I agree one zillion billion per cent. Now, if we could only get BSA to agree.... :-)

[Bob White 20]

Scouting was created in time of great social turmoil. Its founder saw the need for an activity for boys to discover and practice the traditional values that he believed made for better men. Self-reliance, personal goal setting, ability to evaluate and solve problems, fitness (mental, physical and emotional), the ability to lead under pressure, faith in God, duty to country. Traditional values. Are there other traditional values? Yes, but these are the ones he designed the program for.

 

Scouting was and is based on a traditional lifestyle. Were there alternative lifestyle in B-Ps time? Certainly there were. Were there alternative values at that time, yes there were. But those are not what the program was ever about.

 

This is a traditional program for people who want their children to learn traditional values. Homosexaulity is an alternative lifestyle, even its supporters have to concede that. The BSA is not an alternative lifestyle or even a progressive lifestyle program.

 

It is for adults and youth who find value and worth in the same traditional family values. If you seek to promote alternative values or an alternative lifestyle then find, create, adopt, adapt, a progressive and alternative program. Why must this one program fit everyones needs?

 

Is it perfect? No. Can it be made perfect? No. It is what is, everday people with traditional values following a program that uses the outdoors as a classroom for explaining and teaching tradional family values that it has represented for almost 100 years. And for millions of families those centuries old values work for us. It gives us a chance to build a strong foundation for the first few years of our son's lives so that they have the ability to make their own decisions and build whatever structure they choose on top of it.

 

I once spoke before a town committee about the scouts using a facility that other organizations in town get to use, but they were considering not letting the scouts use it. Their reasoning was our membership rules. This was the 8 member panel on Humam Relations.

 

The vote was going to be 6 against and two for the scouts. I asked how many members of the panel had been Boy or Girl Scouts. Six of the eight. I asked how many were Eagles four of the eight. I asked how many felt that their time in scouting helped to prepare them for the life they lead today and the decisions they have to make on this committee.

Six out of Eight. I explained that we are the same organization that we were when they were scouts, and that we prepare kids to day to become the same kind of individuals that the members of this committee have become. Then I asked them to vote.

 

7 Voted for the scouts and 1 abstained.

 

It is what it is, and it cannot serve all values at once, no organization can.

 

It is a program of traditional family values and it is sought out by millions because of that. Just because it may not be what you want it to be is not reason enough to change it from what it has always been.

 

BW

 

 

 

 

 

[anarchist 10]

 

 

Excellent post BW,

 

SemperP your position is eloquent and telling (touching as well). I will not try to pick apart your argument...

But I don't think BSA is in the 'God business'... just in the business of building young men of good character with a system the founders felt appropriate and wholesome.

The small 'mentions' of 'God/god' are not meant to be bible class or studies in comparitive religion, nor are they meant to be wailing in tongues, rolling in the aisle, walking on beds of hot coals demonstrations of faith, simply ceremonial indications of a commonly held appreciation for siritual growth and duties...small reminders if you will.

 

Note the word 'commonly', not to mean lowly or dirty but indicating a 'community of interest' among many travelers in this adventure we call life...

 

More to the crux SemperP, our program is aimed at children growing into adulthood...these small words are not offered up as honorifics to God/god, as Grand Symphonies, as Cathedrals to God/god...these small words are building blocks for our boys to use as they grow: small anchors for them as the raging storm and crashing waves of 'growing up' cast them about.

These small reminders of religious duty are facets of their 'roots', common culture and family beliefs. They are starting points, the beginnings or reinforcements of their own personal base camp, if you will... We don't use Euclidian geometry to teach arithmetc to children. We start small and work upwards...

 

Does God care about BSA? Not pertinent...More pertinent is "do we care about our children?" (and we all know the answer to that one). So a program has been crafted together that is not perfect (sort of cast in our image, eh?!) It (BSA)will not meet the needs of everyone...nor should it...'stooping' to the lowest common denominator has proven disasterous time and time again.

 

BSA is not a religion, simply a worldly organization that as one of its tenents, acknowledges and encourages spiritual growth and religious awarness of its members as important to its mission. It tries to do this in an atmosphere of mutual religious acceptance rather than denominational dogma. The BSA should not be trying to demonstrate its Christian beliefs...or promote GOD; officially it has no such beliefs. It only acknowledges that a faith in a higher power than man is a good thing and wishes to foster 'that good thing'...as a foundation block for its program.

 

American Scouting was not meant to be the end-all for everyone, only one path (an important path, yes) but one of many...To lead, to teach young men to be good citizens and leaders...not priests...or pastors; we leave that to the churches. And we are not perfect, never will be...folks that want perfect... can form a line and build a perfect program, outside of our Scouting program...after all you wouldn't want to build a perfect program on 'inferior' foundations, now would you?

 

I think I would find BSA more inhospitable if it said everyone HAD to be a christian to belong, or a muslim or a jew or an atheist...as it is, believing in a higher power seems just about right...go in peace knowing that God/god does not expect us to be perfect or to act perfect...

 

Religion is the ceremony of our stuggle to understand what God/god wants us to do, and an expression of our understanding...Faith is our acceptance that we will never quite measure up but our God/god has made a place for us at his side (John 14:2-6)

[Eamonn 61]

The other night I was channel surfing in bed and stopped at a PBS station. I had missed the start of the show. But knew it was one of the Independent Lens productions.I found out later the show was titled: Let The Church Say Amen.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/letthechurchsayamen/storefront.html

I was raised in a fairly strict Irish Roman Catholic home. As a young Lad I was very active in the church, serving Mass as an alter boy, and participating in activities at both the parish and diocese level. For a few years I thought that I was being called to be a priest. Everyone else did as well, Headmasters, House-masters, Teachers, Priests and my parents.When I was about 17 or 18 I like a lot of young people became involved in politics. We were going to change the world. I joined the Young Socialists and really did believe that Socialism was the only way to get things where they ought to be.

Going through some old photos the other week OJ didn't know the young man with the long brown hair and the bushy beard. About this time I thought my vocation was not a religious one and maybe teaching was more up my alley. (I was wrong on that one as well!!) For a while I turned my back on my church and my religion.

As I watched this storefront church, something I had never seen before I was really taken by the faith that the church members had. The church was active in doing things in the community which was great, but the faith that people who didn't have that much had in God was a real eye opener for me.

I was the person who said that Scouting without God would be shallow and if God was no longer a part of Scouting I would pack up and move on.

I have over the years had a lot of Lads from a lot of different religions in the troop that I served. I think everyone knew that I was a Roman Catholic, so inviting the Lads that were R/C to attend Mass with me was a no brainer. The Lads that were active in whatever religion they were in was easy. The challenge was the Scouts that had never ever been inside a church. Sure their application had C of E filled in the space for religion and sure in some schools there was still a very quick school prayer offered at the school assemblies. But the Brits are no where near as religious as their American cousins.

I never seen Scouts or Scouting as my ministry. There was no way I was going to convert these C of E form fillers into Roman Catholics. I like to think that maybe, just maybe there were times when the opportunity came along that I did bring God, front and center not as the God of any one church, but as the God of nature and beauty, the God of quite times sitting around the campfire embers.

Much as I admired the people I seen on the TV standing on street corners with bull horns, I can't see me ever joining them. But standing next to a Lad looking at something wonderful and saying "God this is beautiful" is more my style.

Eamonn.

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

It would be wonderful if BSA did embrace a philosophy that included all religious beliefs. Unfortunately, that's not what they seem to be doing. IMHO, I think that the current BSA National leadership would LOVE to be able to say that BSA is open to everyone who has a belief in Christ-based religions; everyone else may happily go elsewhere. Politically, they are unable to do this, but as I said, just MHO.

 

As far as being an organization based on "traditional family values.....

"Traditional" is a changing model that evolves over time. American values, over the years, have included such wonders as slaughtering native peoples, driving native non-human lifeforms to extinction, forcing non-whites into slavery (using the Bible as their basis, in some cases), polluting the air as a means to profit, and laying waste to our lands. Much of this has been in keeping with items of Western religious belief, ie, the idea that they are the stewards of the things that their God has given them; they have interpreted that as a blank check to use these resources as they see fit, and treat those who don't share their belief set as "savages" to be either subjugated or exterminated. "Traditional family values" in the U.S. has included the subordination of women and the beating of children, treating both as property. Fortunately, as the country has progressed, we have made progress in at least some of these areas. Things once seen as "traditional values" are now recognized as being, at the very least, mistakes. Minorities still have a difficult time relative to whites in the U.S., but their situation is improving, thanks to changing value systems. Women, until a short time ago, weren't allowed to participate in Scouting in the U.S., while they have been welcomed in Scouting Worldwide for a very long time. BSA corrected this error, recognizing that this "traditional value" was a "mistake" that was no longer a "traditional value". So, BSA does change with the times, slowly, to be sure, but it does change. Maybe, just maybe, the problem is not with the people who would advocate change. Maybe the problem is with the people who demand that BSA retain outmoded relics of old "traditional values" that no longer reflect the values of the nation, and instead only reflect their own desire to remain in some set of 19th century values.

[Trevorum 24]

Prairie,

 

Yes.

 

They aren't called "conservatives" for nothing!

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Prairie_Scouter

 

I have no idea where you get your ideas about the BSA, but you are going to have to do more that just say you think the BSA would be happy if it only was comprised of Chirst based relions. In all the outrageous proclamations I have read here that has to be in the top 2.

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Where do you get your facts from Prairie? There are dozens of different religions that are actively involved in scouting. The Jewish faith alone is very active in scouting. Bahai, Buddist, Hindu, Islam, Meher Baba, Morovian, Quakers.

 

I know leaders of scout units at synagogues and Buddist Temples. How did you figure that the BSA is only open to Christians?

 

I am also at a loss as to where you get your definition of "traditional".

 

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary certainly doesn't support your definition. It says..

 

1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)

2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

 

That is a far cry from your definition of "Traditional" is a changing model that evolves over time"

 

You wrote "Women, until a short time ago, weren't allowed to participate in Scouting in the U.S"

Thats not even close to accurate.

Women have been involved in scouting for several decades. They were only restricted from a few select positions like Cubmaster, and Scoutmaster and maybe Webelos Leader, that was so long ago even I don't remember.

 

"While they have been welcomed in Scouting Worldwide for a very long time."

 

Another absolutely baseless statement. Share one credible source to verify that statement! There are 153 scouting programs recognized by WOSM, do you have any knowledge of how many others allow women in every role in scouting or at what point in time they were allowed?

 

There were women in the BSA before some countries even had a scouting program.

 

How can you make wild statements like this when you must be aware that there are posters on this board who have been in scouting a long, long time and know these statements are without any credence?

 

"Maybe the problem is with the people who demand that BSA retain outmoded relics of old "traditional values" that no longer reflect the values of the nation, and instead only reflect their own desire to remain in some set of 19th century values."

 

Actually the values we prize the most go back long before the 19th century, and we find they still work very well as core values today. That is the premise that scouting was built on. You cannot change that without changing the entire program. And if you are going to change everything, then why not just begin a new program that is what you want it to be from the start?

 

[SemperParatus 1]

OGE,

 

Just out of curiosity, what was number 1?

 

****

 

I live with 12 other men. We are homeless, typically sleeping in a field or a home that is kindly opened to us by strangers. I don't have a paying job. Most of the time I just walk around and talk, saying the most outlandish things. In fact, most people think I am demon-possessed. Very few would give me a glowing reference if asked. I hang out with drunks and whores, some of my closest friends are the lowest scum of the earth. I do things that tradition says is pure evil. People say I have brought some dead people back to life. I have broken many laws. I am a convicted felon. And the strangest thing is that I do all of this completely by choice.

 

Questions,

 

1. Can I join the BSA?

2. Am I living an 'alternative lifestyle'?

3. If I am, why would my bombastic teachings possibly be considered a part of a 'traditional lifestyle'?

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)