My cold dead hands...

[dsteele 20]

Recently Wisconson has been debating changing the law to allow citizens to get permits for concealed guns. I grew up and spent most of my life in Michigan, where it's a non-issue. In Michigan, getting a concealed weapons permit isn't a problem if you meet the requirements and I like the idea of not knowing who has what and where. I trust people.

 

I did have to laugh at an old boss of mine who made his ugly girlfriend carry a pistol in her purse in case someone tried to rape her -- she was stone ugly, but to him she was beautiful and that was enough for me. If someone had tried something against her she would have blown his head off and another Darwin Award would have been won.

 

The concealed carry law lost in Wisconsin. I don't approve. I know of at least three people murdered in the last month in a bar shooting -- the killer didn't want witnesses to the $300 robbery he got. Perhaps it would have come down differently or not at all if we had the concealed carry laws.

 

However, we'll never know.

 

At the moment, I have no desire to own a gun. However, if I take a job in downtown Detriot, I'll probably change my mind.

 

On the other side, I do like the laws that make applicants for gun permits wait. If you're in a hurry to get a gun, you probably shouldn't have one.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" Does he not say to love your enemies and turn the other cheek? The last time I checked, pointing or firing a gun at someone does not qualify as loving them."

 

I suppose that letting them rape your wife does qualify as loving them?

 

"When the guards came to arrest their company, was the disciple not ordered to stay his sword?"

 

If you have read the book, you'd know that he had reason for that.

 

"I have to hold firm to my claim, more guns do not make for a safer place."

 

Funny how the statistics don't support your claim in places like Florida and Texas.

[Achilleez 10]

If you can honestly think that more guns make a safer environment, the only thing I can do is solemnly disagree.

 

I don't want to argue the bible with you, simply because I hate doing that. All I can say is that guns are, in essence, killing machines. Tools designed and produced to give people the ablility to kill each other with reasonable ease. And I know that if there weren't guns there would be something else that people would kill each other with. But I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want to have the ablility to kill someone else. If I live somewhere where I consider my wife to be in danger of being raped then I will move.

[Region 7 Voyageur 10]

In response to my earlier post Bob White posted Let's put that into historical perspective Region 7. Much of B-Ps purpose to the original British Scouting program was to encourage and prepare young boys for a stint in the military. That is not the purpose of the BSA.

 

I was attempting to point out that the founder of scouting believed in the value of marksmanship. I understand that there was and sometimes is debate as to scouting being oriented towards the military. Many of the skills taught in scouting have military applications, but these skills also have civilian applications. (orienteering, knots, signaling, wilderness survival, first aid, tracking, etc.) I have read that there was much conflict between Mr. Seton and Mr. West in the early BSA about militarism in scouting.

 

The original post in this thread was about someone being arrested after they used a firearm in defense of their home and property. The incident was in a Chicago suburb. There are several towns in Illinois that have restrictions on possession or use of firearms.

 

The United States is a republic based on a constitution. One of the benefits of this system is that the majority cannot supercede the rights of the minority. The second amendment of the constitution says in part that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The people does not mean the national guard. The apparent conflict between the constitution and some local laws will not be decided here in this forum but in the courts.

 

I believe that anyone that chooses to exercise this right also takes on the burden of extreme responsibility for their actions.

 

Dave

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I apologize for this entry, it might bring a sense of reality to the thread:

 

Rape is not about sex, its about violence and domination

[le Voyageur 72]

I've elected to not really take a very active part in this exchange of ideals between those who are pro, and those who are anti gun...but,let me tell you about a "what if I had been there, could I had made a differance" event. Stationed in San Diego and living in San Ysidro back in the 80's, there was a McDonald's that I would stop in at the end of the workday. However, on 18 July 84, a bit of extra work that had to be done changed my schedule enough to keep me out of that restaurant. That was the day a crazy walked in and shot to death 21 souls...would I had met the same fate had I been there? That I really don't know, but I do know that that guy would of been facing someone armed with two 41 cal. Glocks, a 9mm Sig, plus a Colt 357 and two 380's at the ankles...plus enough combat experience to use that small arsenal to it's fullest...well, my advice to folks who live in this world today would be the same to those folks that I trained in Coronado...Be Prepared, there's no second place in combat...

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"If you can honestly think that more guns make a safer environment"

 

I suppose that it depends on who has the guns. If the good guys have them, the world becomes safer as has been shown in Florida. When the bad guys have them, the world becomes less safe as was shown in Nazi Germany, the Phillipenes, and now England and Australia.

 

"If I live somewhere where I consider my wife to be in danger of being raped then I will move."

 

That's the entire planet.

 

 

[Achilleez 10]

"I suppose that it depends on who has the guns. If the good guys have them, the world becomes safer as has been shown in Florida. When the bad guys have them, the world becomes less safe as was shown in Nazi Germany, the Phillipenes, and now England and Australia."

 

Just what exactly qualifies some one to be a 'good guy'. If he goes to church? If he pays his taxes? The world is not so black and white (obvious racial context, but unavoidable) as to separate the good guys from the bad guys. And what about when a good guy goes bad? I don't beleive there is such a thing as 'bad guys'. Rather there are people who are misguided in the choices they make. Who is in a position to distinguish good guys from bad guys? Are people better in Florida? Is there a higher ratio of good guys : bad guys there? Every person on the planet has the ablility to do wrong, whether they choose to exercise that ability or not. And guns can make a wrong situation turn worse.

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" I don't beleive there is such a thing as 'bad guys'. Rather there are people who are misguided in the choices they make."

 

Hooooo! Haaaa! He, he, har, he! Ha, ha, ha, Ho, ha, hooooo, arf, snorf, heh, heh, haaaaaa.

 

Thanks, I haven't had such a good laugh in a couple weeks

 

 

[Achilleez 10]

Laugh if you will, but it does not degrade the fact that very few people on the planet are 'bad guys'. A man who thinks his life will improve if he earns $2000 from robbing a liquor store is not in any sense evil or a bad guy. This man probably has many issues in his life involving relationships, financial problems, drugs, self-acceptance, or other conflicts that overwhelm him into thinking that he has nothing to lose and that the robbery will be worth it. Is this man a 'bad guy'? Granted his thought processes and choices were wrong but how does that reflect upon him as a person? Are you FOG better than this man, because you are a good guy and he is a bad guy? Do you want to only sell guns in places where the good guys live?

[Bob White 20]

My only point Region 7 was that you used B-Ps comment out of context.

 

He used it in the vein of encouraging and preparing boys for a military calling. The issue of gun ownership was not even existent in that era in England, so he would have had no reason to address the issue.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" A man who thinks his life will improve if he earns $2000 from robbing a liquor store is not in any sense evil or a bad guy."

 

Still laughing. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.

 

Excuse me, I'm headed to the FOP lodge to let them read your "wisdom."

[LovetoCamp 9]

Call the Ag Dept. I know which canadian ate those mad cow burgers!!!

[lasteagle83 10]

Hallelujiah, I've seen the light! Thanks, Achilleez!

 

Tomorrow morning, I will be hiring a pychiatrist and social worker to ride shotgun (so to speak) who will interview and perform appropriate treatment to anyone who attempts to harm me, my family, or deprive me of my hard-earned belongings. If and only if their attempts fail, will I draw my weapon to defend myself.

 

I anticipate the professional attempts to treat the criminal to have a duration of approximately 10 seconds.......or less.

[Big_Dog 10]

Achilleez-

Just a thought,

" I don't believe there is such a thing as bad guys.."

Try watching film from the Charles Manson event. Look into his eyes as he talks to the reporter and if you don't see evil, let me know.

 

BD