My thoughts on sheath knives.

[willysjeep]

Remember too that a sheath knife can be carried safely in a pack too, not on the belt. A substantial sheath is required for axes too, so making one mandatory for sheath knives shouldn't be too difficult. I'm actually afraid of one thing. If I try to convince my Socutmaster to allow them he'll use the same defense he allways does aganst things he doesn't like. He allways says that if we don't agree with him we can ask him and he'll quit the troop. I'm afraid he might actually do it if I try to get sheath knives allowed on troop campouts. He's really toutchey about when people don't agree with him. I'm leery about even asking him about it because I know he probably doesn't like the idea, even if he doesn't know why, and I don't want to make bad blood between im and me over something like that. I think I might just casually ask if the troop has a sheath knife rule, and if we do then mabey I can talk him into letting me try to convince the board to make a decision on them. Like I said, I'm afraid if I try too hard to get a pro-sheath knife directive I might offend him, or worse make him threaten to leave. He's a great guy, but doesn't take kindly to people debating his ideas. Like I said, I'm going to test the waters a little and if he really doesn't object to the idea too much mabey I can talk the board into passing a motion allowing, say single edged blades less than 4" without a double cross guard and equipped with a scoutmaster approved sheath, and used in a proper manor to be allowed on scout functions. I'll give it a try.

[dan]

WOW, if you do not like it I will leave!?!?

Is this the same way he is with the boys?

Sounds to me like it would be good if he left, his way or the highway.

Does he do this without discsussion about it, or even looking at the rules?

[matuawarrior]

Ditto on the Wow . . . It appears this is more than a sheath knife issue with your Scoutmaster. To have a "do it my way or I'll leave" attitude raises flags with me. It looks more like a control issue with your SM.

 

I would slowly bring up the idea as a special class on totin chit. He may go with the idea.

 

It would be best to take small steps with introducing changes.

 

Matua

[willysjeep]

OK, PLEASE don't take me the wrong way here. Our scoutmaster is a great guy who puts a lot into our program but he has been quite stubborn in the past. He has never come out and said "If you don't like it I'll leave" but once in a while he reminds us "If anybody says the word I'll step down". I haven't asked him about this issue yet and I don't want to push him to say anything like that, but if he says no and I keep working at it he's gonna probably not take it too well. He doesn't like it when somebody contradicts him. I'm thinking about bringing the sheath knife issue up to the whole troop committee at the next meeting. If I can convince a few of them it will be a little harder for one person to put their foot down. I really hate playing the Scout politocal game but if it means keeping a great scoutmaster who likes things to go his way and still changing a few minds about this nonexistant sheath knife ban. I really don't want to make this guy mad, but then again if he would actually quit over something like this mabey we would be better off, but like I said I'm friends with this guy but I don't know just how he might react, but I haven't asked yet. I'm picking my words and trying to make my point convincing enough to win him over too. If I do this well enough mabey he will actually agree with me. I don't think he would actually quit the troop, but like he said he would step down inf somebody asked. I just hope he doesn't take my attempt to repeal the nonexistant ban on sheath knives as some kind of attack on him. Well, guess I'll find out next committee meeting.

[sst3rd]

Willysjeep,

 

It still sounds to me that you're walking on eggshells for some reason. I didn't catch if you're a youth or an adult member, and currently at what position. If you go to the Committee (I'm a Scoutmaster), and try to get this pushed through, I know I wouldn't appreciate it. This is NOT what the Committee does. It supports the PLC's planned program with the SM and ASM's.

I know that our Council doesn't allow tham on their properties. Agreed that I can't find it in writing anywhere, but it's just not that important to our Scouting program. Folding knives have worked fine for years.

Many years ago in this very same Council, I was a Scout, and we all had sheath knives. The joke was, that you could tell how long you've been a Scout, by the size of the knife. Momma tended to get her new Scout a machete (yes, I'm exagerating) to use, and then as the Scout got older, they realized that smaller and smaller knifes worked just as good.

Back to topic, the PLC is the place to start. Your Scoutmaster would be in attendance, and I think if there is a real interest in adding the sheath knife to the Totin' Chip program, I can't see why he would differ, but he may bring up his reasons. Please listen. Just remember as you camp around, some areas don't allow sheath knives, and you're Scoutmaster is responsible for all actions of the Troop. He signs the permits. Maybe he just wants one less thing to worry about.

Is it REALLY that important?

 

sst3rd

[matuawarrior]

Willysjeep,

 

One thing you may ask before you go on this venture. Is there a need? Approach your SM with the idea and see where it takes you. Like sst3rd, I'm a Scoutmaster and wouldn't like it if one of my ASM's went to the committee without my knowledge, knowing that it may be worked out at the unit level. It sets a bad precedent for the rest of the unit. For example, a scout going over his PL's head to talk about an idea to the SPL. If an ASM can do it, a scout can do it.

 

Like many who posted here, I agree the more seasoned you are in the outdoors, the smaller your knife will be. I don't want to give the impression that although we allow it in my units. Not all my scouts or venturers wear sheath knives. The most experienced campers in my units leave their sheath knives in their packs and carry pocket knives on their belts. It's only the new scouts/venturers that wear their sheath knives on their belts. After a couple of trips into the jungle, which is usually one backpacking trip, they learn their lesson and put those things away. My Recon Team -- these are the older scouts and venturers -- assigns one person to carry a machete and another to carry a sheath knife when we hit the jungle. The rest of the team carries pocket knives.

 

Anyway, talk to your Scoutmaster with the idea, hear him out. His reasons may be justified. The worst he can say is "No".

 

Keep us posted . . .

 

Matua

[KoreaScouter]

"...say the word and I'll quit..."?

 

We call that "falling on your sword". There are a rather small number of situations that would call for that. After all, falling on your sword is very noble, but you can only do it once.

 

Every SM serves at the pleasure of the CO, of course, but there's no positive reason I can think of to offer to quit every time someone disagrees with you.

 

This is not about knives...

 

KS

[willysjeep]

I am an experienced scout, but a young scouter. Currently I'm an ASM. I would not really be going over my SM's head here because in our committee meetings there is a set time for people to bring up their own pet topics that they would like to mention at the PLC. I would also not really be looking for a rule to be carved in stone, only for a guideline or a statement of some kind.

 

The issue really isn't sheath knives I guess. The issue for me is freedom from rules that don't make sense. Granted, there may not be a great reason for sheath knives but that's no reason to ban them. Part of the explanation for the scout law is a scout doesn't break unfair rules but seeks to have them changed.

 

Mabey I'm being overly paranoid here about offending my SM. I am a relatively new leader, but I'm an Eagle from this troop too. I don't want to rock the boat too much, but I hate rules that make no sense, especially when absolutely nobody benifits from them.

 

Another thing is that my SM may have just used the falling on his sword thing as a bluff under extreme conditions in the past. He never really has, obviously, so it could just be something from the past that was meant to stay there.

 

I know the PLC is supposed to have a big part in the decision too, but I don't want to win them over and then have my SM shut them down. Our SM once exersized his executive powers when the PLC made a decision about a discipline issue he didn't agree with. He does things that I don't like, but not enough that I would want him replaced. I don't think too many other people might take the job and I'd hate to have the troop fold because of me, so I am walking on eggshells with my SM. He's an irreplaceable item. I want to atleast get some conversation about the topic, but not at the cost of loosing an adult who has contributed a lot to my troop and who has made a lot of friends here.

 

I'll just have to see how it goes and play it safe. Nice to know that atleast a few scouters out there think somewhat like me.

 

Even if sheath knives aren't a big part of the troop program, why should banning them be?

 

Like I said, I'm going to play it safe and go slow. If I don't win anybody over I'll drop it, but if I do have some success and run into trouble with my SM then so be it, I'll take it up with him. All I can do is try otherwise nothign will ever change.(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

[willysjeep]

OK, talked to a few people and found out the guide to safe scouting does discourage sheath knives, although a lot of people in my troop feel as I do. I think it looks like I would be better served by not making an issue of this. RIght now our troop has no set rule, but they are discouraged. Discouraged is not banned, so if I do catch any heat for using a sheath knife atleast I won't be breaking any rules. If I try to get some kind of directive passed by my troop there will probably be a big fuss and a rule aganst them will be passsed, but if I use mine safely and defend it if I do come under fire then I can use it on some occasions. I still think compared to the kitchen knives without sheaths in scout cook kits a sheath knife is not dangerous at all and should not be discouraged.

[KoreaScouter]

It's an optimal situation when all the volunteers in direct contact with the Scouts in a unit share the same "world view" when it comes to program delivery and personal preferences. I don't know if that optimal situation exists in any unit; everybody's different and brings their own experiences to the team. So, we all have to make trade-offs, compromises, and meet halfway on some things.

 

When I was a Cubmaster, we had a meeting with the den leaders right before the monthly committee meeting. Although there are program differences of course, the opportunity for all of us to get together as a group without distractors really helped us balance out our efforts and pull in the same direction. Things are different and more complicated with a Troop, but I still try to do that with the ASMs, although now, it's more situational and event-based...driven more by their availability than any other factor. These "stand-up huddles" really help us, but I guess their success is going to be largely dependent on how egalitarian everyone is, mainly the Scoutmaster.

 

Leading our volunteers shouldn't be a dictatorship, but it's not really a democracy either. The "my way or the highway" types have to be prepared to go it alone, literally or figuratively. While the SM's ultimately responsible to the CO for delivering the program, he's got to recognize that nobody has a monopoly on brains, and learn how to enthusiastically use the talents and ideas of all the other leaders, too. Incidentally, I think the willingness to do this is an important element in the success of Venture patrol and NSP activities, too.

 

I honestly haven't met many people who are so resistant to change or insecure that they'd be threatened by delegation and shared leadership...

 

KS

 

 

[willysjeep]

The problems I thought might occour never did, but it has made me think a little about how my SM does act once in a while. I haven't really pushed it yet either. It's not really a problem, but in times past we have had a few point of view conflicts which I chose to let go. I guess him and I don't share the same POV on a lot of things, but usually I figure that it isn't worth a big depate just because of my past experiences with him. Like I said, they were probably isolated incidents that won't ever come up again, but I don't want to push it.

 

 

[packsaddle]

In the klutzy circles I frequent, we tend to fall on our scabbards. They tend to bruise but then we also tend to make a lot of mistakes. Reminds me of my childhood with the little circles all over my body from girls taking dares and touching me with ten-foot poles.

Our troop is heavily weighted toward the younger boys. I have an instinctive caution regarding sheath knives because I see their cheap, ineffective sheaths and the rather careless way the boys carry them. But I can take care of this problem in my troop. It's the Rambo wannabe in the other troop that I worry about at camp. On the other hand, that razor-sharp folding knife...oh well, I guess I just worry a lot. Now let me see...where did I leave that scabbard?

[Fat Old Guy]

"...say the word and I'll quit..."?

 

I see eye-to-eye with my SM but others don't. He's said, on more than one occasion, "You people sought me out and asked me to take this job. If you don't like what I'm doing, one of us can quit." I see his point because he wasn't an ASM or even on the Committee last year. The Committee said, "Hey, would you be the SM" so he went to training, bought a bunch of uniforms and threw himself into the job. Unfortunately, the last SM didn't give a hoot about anything and parents and kids got used to the lax attitude.

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, Al, and good luck. I understand the concerns expressed by others regarding the 'my way or the highway' attitude. If a person has a thought that is important to them, it is important for a leader to listen and understand. Sometimes that person has a very good thought. To me the dictatorial approach indicates weak interpersonal skills, perhaps insecurity or lack of confidence in his stated position, or perhaps a bullying approach to people in general, compensating for his shortcomings. But it will be a problem and eventually someone will 'call' him on it...and 'the highway' it will be.

[Fat Old Guy]

But it will be a problem and eventually someone will 'call' him on it...and 'the highway' it will be.

 

I support the SM in this regard. He wants to do things the Scouting way and is being fought at every turn. He wants to stress the importance of the uniform and parents are complaining, "if he makes Bobby wear a uniform, Bobby will just quit."

 

To me the dictatorial approach indicates weak interpersonal skills, perhaps insecurity or lack of confidence in his stated position, or perhaps a bullying approach to people in general, compensating for his shortcomings.

 

Ah, the psychology degreee from Redbook magazine. Is this how you deal with your son when you say, "Clean your room or you can't go out." Do you listen carefully has he rants about the injustices of life and how unfair it is that you expect to defeat the entropy in his room.

 

If a person has a thought that is important to them, it is important for a leader to listen and understand. Sometimes that person has a very good thought.

 

Most of the time, the person wants special treatment. "I don't understand why you say that Jimmy hasn't been active. He wants to come to the meetings and go camping but it interferes with Soccer and his coach won't let him miss practice and this is just Scouts after all."

 

When I was a young man, I umpired baseball. We had a term for coaches and parents who always had something to say. We called them "howler monkeys." The rules applied to everyone but their kids and they always knew better. What they had to say may have been important to them but it certainly wasn't to me or my brothers.

 

(This message has been edited by Al Lundy)