BSA Training

[John-in-KC 311]

Ga Hill Billy,

 

Long story short:

 

If your current unit is not delivering the promise and will not change its use of the Methods, then it''s time to consider a new Troop.

 

Your son should look for:

- Smiles on boys faces.

- An activity schedule that shows them out doing things

- Training in troop meetings which supports operations on coming campouts.

 

You should look for:

- SM who gives much authority and responsibility (and perhaps some deference) to the SPL and the PLC.

- CC who works with the SM and who takes program info from the SPL (as the voice of the PLC).

- Committee which supports the SM and steps into the meeting only as specifically needed.

- Skills taught mostly by youth, but adults stepping in on request of youth when advanced topics come up.

 

Make sense?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[GaHillBilly 10]

Lisabob wrote

"What you wrote in response to me is exactly what I think your district and council training chairs need to hear."

 

Maybe, I don''t know. But more importantly, some people at the district and council level are my local troop''s leaders close friends. Some are, some are not, but I don''t know which are which. And if I say something to the wrong person, it will boomerang big time. I''m not the most tactful person in the world, and my social navigation skills aren''t the best. I do better in print than in conversation.

 

So . . . looking at the situation from a risk/benefit perspective, I still have to conclude that, if I try to ''say something'' the risk of a disaster is much greater than the likelihood of any benefit. I think in this situation, if perhaps silence is not ''golden'', but at least it''s not big s___ storm either.

 

GaHillBilly

[GaHillBilly 10]

John-in-KC wrote,

"Make sense??

 

Yes and no. I agree with the list; but how -- precisely, step-by-step -- do I find such a troop without either PO''g the existing SM and troop (after all, we''ll see them with some regularity) or taking my son out of scouting while I look?

 

GaHillBilly

[John-in-KC 311]

1) Have son call PL "I cannot be at meeting tonight, and neither can Dad." No explanation given. Go see one of the other Troops.

 

2) Do this on alternate weeks. Attend meeting on other weeks.

 

3) When SM catches on, say "Son may be developing other interests, we''re looking at what youth serving activity supports him best."

 

4) If SM gets a call from another SM, and he confronts you, simply say "I''m seeing an Adult Run Troop here, and no willingness to change. That''s not the Scouting experience I want for my son."

 

This isn''t the NFL, the team isn''t paying your son big bucks to participate. In fact, you''re paying to participate. Your son deserves the best Scouting experience he can reasonably find, and you can reasonably support.

[ScoutNut 147]

I am close friends with a number of folks in our Council office too. What does that have to do with an honest critique of the training you received?

 

As Eamon stated, a course evaluation sheet is given to EVERY participant at the end of EVERY training course. The whole point of doing this is to get feedback on the training. By not filling out, and handing in, your course evaluation at the end of your training, you are not helping to improve the training.

 

You state - "Everybody already ''''knows better'''' then to do what was done." Everybody who? How do YOU know that? How do THEY know that? From the course evaluation they got from you (nothing at all) all they can conclude is that you were satisfied with the training you received.

 

Your evaluation of a Council training course you have taken has NOTHING to do with your current Troop at all. No questions are asked about your Troop on the evaluation, other than what number it is. Nothing to "boomerang". No need to worry about a "disaster" in the making. If, by some chance, you still have the course evaluation, fill it out and send it to the Course Director. Or simply write a note stating the course name & date and any positive AND negative comments about the course and the training you received. If you do not know who the CD is, or do not know how to contact him, send it to your Council in care of District AYZ''s Training Chairman. If you STILL fear repercussions, then simply do not put your name or Troop number on the evaluation. The Course Director really does not care who you are, or what Troop you are with, only how you felt the training you received was.

 

As for visiting other Troops - You do not have to take out an add in the paper on everything you dislike about your current Troop. You also do not need their permission in order to investigate other Troops.

 

You can get a listing of Troops in your area, along with SM contact info, from your DE. If you are not comfortable asking your DE (for whatever reason), go to the Troop Locater area on the Scout Zone web site -

 

http://www.thescoutzone.org/locator.html

 

Put in your zip code and it will give you a list of Troops, by town and Charter Organization, in your area. You can then look the Charter Orgs up in your local yellow pages and get contact info from them.

 

Contact each SM and find out when they meet (the odds that every Troop in your area meets on the same day and time is extremely small). Make an appointment to visit each Troop meeting. Or, you and your son could just drop in. Sometimes that gives you a better look at how a Troop really operates when they are not on their "best" behavior knowing visitors are coming.

 

Once again, there is no need to bad mouth, or even comment on, your current Troop at all. Simply tell the SMs that you and your son are looking at what other Troops in your area are like. Period.

[GaHillBilly 10]

Scoutnut wrote:

"a course evaluation sheet is given to EVERY participant at the end of EVERY training course. "

 

Nope. I guess they forgot about that along with forgetting about lunch.

 

GaHillBilly

[John-in-KC 311]

I absolutely agree with ScoutNut on this:

 

Once again, there is no need to bad mouth, or even comment on, your current Troop at all. Simply tell the SMs that you and your son are looking at what other Troops in your area are like. Period.

 

Leave any comments about your current Troop at home. If word gets back SM-SM to your old Troop, see my post above. In fact, I''ll amend what I think you should say: Leave it at: "This Troop does not provide the Scouting experience I want for my son." If it ends up another Troop meets another night of the week that fits his schedule better say "We found a unit whose schedule is a better fit with his church and homework obligations."

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

Thanks for the suggestions -- some have been quite helpful.

 

But, to clarify:

 

+ I have ZERO intention of discussing the current troop with any other SM, ASM, UC, DE, or ABC ;-) until it becomes necessary, because we are about to commit.

 

+ I also have no intention of discussing things with the DE or anyone else at Council or District, because I''m nearly certain I''ll end up stepping in stinky if I do. (To reiterate: there was NO eval form at the training!)

 

+ Some of the ''don''t explain'' suggestions, with respect to the current SM, are helpful, but can only go so far, because the SM knows enough about our circumstances to recognize some of the suggestions (if used) as BS. We have a lot of time flexibility.

 

+ Also, please keep in mind that I''m not at all sure that there actually IS a better troop within reach. Frankly, some of the comments and reactions here leave me with the impression that bad training and disorganized adult-led troops are much more common than good training or effective boy-led troops. So I have to be careful not to burn any bridges. My son has pretty much decided that he wants to Life by December 2008 and Eagle 2 years later at 15, with or without the troop. That wouldn''t mean much, if it had been me at his age. But he''s a little like a train in a switch yard: it takes a long time for him to make up his mind and get on a track, but once he does, he''s usually there for the long haul. And, given his decision, it''s easier to Eagle in a bad troop than in no troop.

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

 

[eolesen 10]

The first time I presented Scoutmaster Specifics, I had less than three days notice, and didn''t get the powerpoint presentations until the night before the class. The guy who was scheduled to do it wound up in the hospital, so the choice was go with someone slightly prepared or cancel the class. We chose not to cancel. I won''t guarantee it was the most informative session ever presented for SLST, but we did finish ontime...

 

It''s tough to deliver the curriculum in the timeframes that BSA suggests unless you simply do it in lecturer mode. That''s no fun. You might as well ship it out as a DVD for people to watch at home... Instead, I find a way of leaving time for Scoutmaster War Stories, because that''s where you really learn about Scouting.

[Eagledad 2780]

>>Frankly, some of the comments and reactions here leave me with the impression that bad training and disorganized adult-led troops are much more common than good training or effective boy-led troops. So I have to be careful not to burn any bridges.

[scoutldr 732]

As a former District training chair, I presented many courses by myself. I always offered a course critique, but most of the comments were critical of the course materials/syllabus which I had no control over. When I did dare to deviate from the syllabus and answer the many questions of the students, we quickly went off schedule. There is just enough time in the schedule to read the materials to the students and play the videos...nothing more. Even in 2004, the materials were outdated. CS training was the worst. The Council office would advertise the course and handle quotas, as "Cub Scout Leader Specific" training. So, I would get the list of registrants the day before (if I was lucky), and would have 2 CMs, 2DLs, 2 WDLs, some committee members and some assistants. Now these are all supposed to be separate courses, but the Council pros refused to advertise it that way, because they wanted the numbers. So I would do the best I could, and suffer the bad comments of the students who, for whatever reason, didn''t have their expectations met. Very frustrating. Also, if I were to present the training as designed, it was up to me to provide all handouts, a laptop, and LCD projector (about $5 grand and $100 for a bulb if it happens to blow). The council office would not do ANY Xeroxing for free, even though they collected $10 for the training from each student. I did inherit a case of BSA books, but they were all obsolete, and there was no training budget to replace them. I woke up one day and realized it was "too hard" and resigned my position, since they weren''t interested in doing a good job...just in increasing the numbers of "TRAINED" leaders.

[Scouter&mom 10]

GaHillBilly,

 

One suggestion I didn''t see, is to consider attending training in other councils if you aren''t happy with what you are getting from yours. Those of us in Ga are lucky, because we have a number of councils within a couple of hours drive. I know when I attended Webelos Den Leader there were only two of us in the class, so it made following the syllabus awful boring. I enjoyed outdoor leader, since there more adults along, some of us with lots of skills, just along for the check off and the fun of camping without kids and some greenhorns, who were amazed with everything. I am planning to attend another councils University of Scouting in January to get an outside viewpoint. Our council is also a bit "close minded'' and not always open to anything different. When I decide to take Wood Badge I am pretty sure I will go out of council to get me outside of our local cliques. My son did NYLT that way, and learned group dynamics and leadership quickly, when he spent a week with 40 boys from the other council who he had never met.

[GaHillBilly 10]

Curiouser and curiouser!

 

Lots of interesting and potentially helpful responses, for which y''ll have my thanks.

 

But, I''m also intrigued and even puzzled. I''d gotten the impression that the "Wood Badge" was the Holy Grail of Scouter training. I thought I was being daring by questioning the value of the square-knot ''chest soup'' I see so much of, but no one even noticed. Now, to have the supreme value of Wood Badge training questioned stimulates even more thought and ''ponderment'' on this end.

 

I know things always look different on the inside, than from the outside. The question with respect to the BSA is "how different, and how much different?".

 

The answer, apparently, is "in many ways", and "substantially".

 

This all leaves me with a single burning, but unanswered, question: "Given that all the standard BSA training produces troops and leaders that predominately do NOT work as advertised, where should I go to learn how troops that really work, became that way?". This question leads to all sorts of unanswered niggling details, like, "How would I find out which of my neighboring councils offers superior training?"

 

GaHillBilly

 

PS: Message preview is *still* broken, at least in Firefox. It worked find when I originally started this thread.

[eagle-pete 11]

GaHillBilly

 

One thing to consider is no training in BSA is intended to churn out perfectly ran troops all staffed with model leaders who all come to every scout meeting with their shirts all neatly pressed and with perfect boys all earning their Eagle Scout by age 16. This would be an unrealistic expectation, both from BSA and from Scouters.

 

What we do want Scout Leaders to get from trainings is (1) the "Scouting Spirit". A special enthusiasm unique to Scouting. (2) A better understanding of how the program is intended to be run. There are many times in my own troop where we must customize the program to our specific boys, but always keeping in the forefront the Aims and Methods, and what our objectives are. (3) A vision. Without a vision, we don''t really know where we are going. Trainings allow us to formulate that vision into something that makes sense for our troop and for what we want to accomplish.

 

You''re never going to take a course syllabus or a BSA handbook and sit the boys down and say, "It says here that we need to use the ''patrol method''", and then expect the boys (or leaders for that matter) to fall in lockstep with the BSA''s way of doing things. Trainings do, however, help us get a better understanding of the program, formulate our vision, and come to the troop with an enthusiasm for the program. And if we''re really lucky, the leaders and boys in our unit will catch the vision, too.

 

Nothing is more satisfying to me than to have a boy come up from Webelos into our troop and go on his first camp with us. This was a boy who, for whatever reason, wasn''t participating all that much in the Cubs and Webelos programs. He came home saying, "Man, that was fun!", full of enthusiasm and ready for more. There''s the proof that tells me I am working the program and I am doing something that is having a positive effect on the boys. What other measurement of success do we need?

 

Eagle Pete

[eisely 13]

I have been involved as a BSA trainer now for six years. My original motivation derived in part from my dissatisfaction with the training course that I had gone through some years earlier (then called Scoutmaster Fundamentals or something like that). It apalls me that they did not ask for evaluations at your event. How will those running the program know what to do better the next time?

 

My district actually collaborates with two other districts and together we put on very effective, on time programs. The trainees consistently give us high marks, and occasional helpful suggestions that we adopt. Some people at the council level apparently dislike the fact that the three districts collaborate but they are afraid to mess with success.

 

I wish you well. Sounds like searching out a new troop is your best option, or even starting a new troop if you can find a charter partner and feel up to it.