BSA Training

[GaHillBilly 10]

Hi All,

 

I spent this past Saturday doing BSA "Essentials" and "BS Leader Specific" training. It was not an entirely happy experience. I''m sure some of you here are in the position of either asking people in your troop to attend training, or else in providing training. So, I have some comments, based on my experience this weekend.

 

1. It''s not OK, nor an example of BS ''preparedness'', to ask an adult volunteer on Thursday to attend training on Saturday, even if you say "you don''t have to go, if you really don''t want to go.", especially when you add an remark about, "Of course, that will hurt our troop''s effort to get X award". I hadn''t heard of the award he mentioned, and can''t recall its name.

 

2. It''s not OK to tell said adult that the session will run from 8 - noon, and allow him to discover on his own that it won''t start till 8: 30, nor end till 2:45, with no lunch break between.

 

3. It is not OK for training staff to act as if this this YouTube video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HLpjrHzgSRM

is a BSA training video on using PowerPoint. (Argh! The "Essentials" training staff not only ran over their allotted time by an hour, but also hit every point in the video they could, given that most of the PP slides were BSA provided!)

 

 

 

There was some value to the training.

 

+ The "Essentials" trainers were all associated with Cub Scouts, so and I learned that in Cub Scouts (1) the boys advance by age, (2) Dens are volunteer and parent led, not boy led, and (3) the parents are always, or mostly, present. That bit of information explains a lot about what''s happening in this new troop, given that almost everyone (leaders, adults, boys) moved up from a Den they''ve been in together for 3+ years. Apparently, old habits die slowly, even when the SM has a Wood Badge!

 

+ The LST trainer seemed very honest and open, and if he''s to be trusted, there is at least one troop in Georgia that actually functions according to the BSA / Baden-Powell plan. I was beginning to have my doubts.

 

+ I actually found the LST training very apropos, informative, and helpful. Unfortunately it also was a comprehensive catalog of all that our troop is NOT doing the right way; the list is much longer than I had realized. Given that the SM is Wood Badged, and ''square knotted'' to the point that his shirt looks like a quilt from some angles, this is rather discouraging. (Plan, what meeting plan? I''m asking if you can teach knots tonight. - call received 2 hours before a meeting - nothing unexpected had happened; last minute planning seems to be the rule, not the exception.)

 

Color me somewhat disillusioned.

 

Moray

 

[local1400 10]

GA HillBilly (I don''t have a pretty mouth!). You obviously understand the Boy-led concept and it''s up to you to bring that to your troop. Good luck, and thank you for your volunteerism.

[John-in-KC 311]

OUCH!!!

 

Your critiques have merit!

 

1) There is never an excuse for asking a volunteer to do something on a "hey, you" basis that is not direct support of the youth program members! Two weeks of heads up time should be the bare minimum. It''s completely reasonable to say "Sorry" at 13 days or less, imo.

 

2) There is no excuse for not giving accurate info, especially on starting times.

 

3) As you noticed, reading the !@#$%^&*()_(&^%$ slides is WASTING THE VOLUNTEERS TIME. I can read, dagnabit... add value to the slides, say something that isn''t on them.

 

4) Since few of us are professional trainers in our day jobs, I can understand a training event going long ... but 2 hours and 15 minutes long is indeed discourteous to the training audience.

 

Thank you for volunteering to serve Scouting in a unit-serving position. Please remember not only the course content, but also the lessons you learned in how (not to) train others... you may someday be leading unit level junior leader training whilst you ramp up kids to do it for themselves!

[epalmer84 10]

>That bit of information explains a lot about what''''s happening in this new troop, given that almost everyone (leaders, adults, boys) moved up from a Den they''''ve been in together for 3+ years. Apparently, old habits die slowly, even when the SM has a Wood Badge!

 

I''m afraid that those types of troops are often referred to as "Webelos III" troops. You do seem to have gained a lot of information from what seems like a tortuous session.

 

Ed

[scottteng 11]

The comic was a blast. Bad training experiences were what motivated me to volunteer for the training staff. New Leader Essentials is a half day training required of all new leaders be they cub scout or boy scout. The after lunch sessions (we always do lunch trainers get hungry too) are Tiger leader, wolf/bear leader, Webelos leader, Cubmaster and Committee chair. I hate to be the one to break it to you but if you are in a troop (boy scouts) as a SM or ASM SM specific is a separate 6 hour training which can be done in long day or three session course. Then to be fully trained you will attend IOLS which is an entire weekend spent practicing camping with other adult leaders. I have some good news if you volunteer to help teach you get credit for teaching and taking. It is amazing how tense some people get in front of even a friendly audience.

[ScoutNut 147]

"if you volunteer to help teach you get credit for teaching and taking"

 

Not around here. You have to have first gone thru the course in order to be a staff member on the course. How can you teach what you do not know yet?

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

Can''t volunteer to teach a "Standard training" course you haven''t taken here either.

 

You can give a Roundtable presentation on it or do a University of Scouting(U of S) class(because they will send a "Proficient Trainer" to supervise you) and get trainers credit but you can''t get credit for taking it without sitting through it. At least in these here woods.

 

Now once you''ve sat through it you can train anyone(one-on-one, small group troop, den, Roundtable, U of S, council) if you have that set of program materials.

 

And yes, my BSA Essentials and SM Specific with YPT and Fast Start and Committee Challenge made for an excruciating day as well(They also did CM Specific). Same timeline issues, and when I signed up it was only the Essentials and SM Specific with a 1/2 day schedule, little did I know they meant 12 hours was a 1/2 day. They did at least provide lunch.

 

 

 

[scottteng 11]

I''m not talking about doing the whole course but they are broken down into about 20 minute bites which are all assigned to different people. The syllabus are very thorough and some parts lunch prep don''t even require one to talk. We have presenters and backups for each little part. Some parts only require being able to run the TV/vcr. Some people may never take particular classes for example IOLS because it is not required for their position. That does not mean that they do not understand the proper dish washing method and how to present it to a class. I would guess that all of these would be advanced trainings.

[infoscouter 11]

New Leader Essentials is designed to be a 1.5 hour course. We have a hard time keeping it under two hours, but we try darn hard. The section on Safe Scouting always has so many questions. If its taking a whole morning, someone must have padded it or be telling a lot of war stories.

 

I kind of like the idea of breaking for lunch, though. We start NLE at 8:30 and the position specific sessions at 10:45. We teach right through until 1:30, eating while we teach.

 

If we started at 10:00, we could break at noon, and start PST at 12:30. However, that would have us ending at 3:00 (I''m talking Cub training here) Most of our learners think the 1:30 ending time is too late, and they''re giving up too much time. The syllabus before this was 6 hours, and the one before that 8. At one time Cub training took 18 hours, over several days.

 

GaHillBilly, don''t be discouraged. Knowledge is power. Now that you know how the troop is supposed to work, you''re in the position to drop words of wisdom in the ears of adults and youth involved. More importantly, you can encourage training for others - including the boys - who can effect change.

[BrentAllen 10]

"if you volunteer to help teach you get credit for teaching and taking"

 

This DOES apply to Wilderness First Aid. If you are First Aid/CPR/AED Instructor trained, you can attend WFA as an instructor and student, and receive credit as both. The course is broken down into sections, as is SLT; it can be taught with 6 - 8 instructors, and you need "victims" as well. So, as an instructor, you are going to be sitting around listening to all the other instruction, except for the section or two you teach.

 

Sorry for the interruption - you are now returned to your regular programming.

[Lisabob 13]

I''ve had some horrible training experiences too. And it is a shame because anybody who has been so abused is unlikely to voluntarily attend any sort of BSA training again in the future - or if they do, they''re likely to show up with a bad attitude, prepared to be angry about the enormous discourtesy and waste of time that they expect to experience. Not the way to support our units.

 

GaHillBilly, when you''re feeling less burned by your rotten experience, it might be helpful for you to provide some constructive, written, feedback on the sessions you attended. I''m not sure that giving these to the people who did the training is the best thing, but you might want to seek out your district and council training chairs and let them know. If they''re any good at their (volunteer) jobs, they''ll take your complaints seriously and hopefully start making some improvements in the quality of training they are offering.

 

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

LisaBob wrote,

"GaHillBilly, when you''''re feeling less burned by your rotten experience, it might be helpful for you to provide some constructive, written, feedback on the sessions you attended."

 

 

I''m not sure what sort of positive feedback I could offer. Everybody already ''knows better'' then to do what was done. So far, my experience of local council training is that it''s a very ad hoc process, often made up on the fly. Obviously, this particular training is largely standardized by BSA National, so there''s some reliable content. But no one ''learns lessons'' from what happened. This failure to learn is especially discouraging to me, because it represents such a complete failure to implement the sort of boy training SM-LST establishes as the standard for BSA troops.

 

 

 

 

 

Epalmer84 wrote

"I''m afraid that those types of troops are often referred to as "Webelos III" troops. You do seem to have gained a lot of information from what seems like a tortuous session."

 

 

Actually, I''ve been to bad meetings before, and can benefit from skipping lunch, even though I don''t yet seem to fully measure up to the common Scoutmaster ''profile'' ;-).

 

But what''s really lingering is the terrible contrast between what''s being discussed so enthusiastically, and what''s actually being done in the troops.

 

I''m afraid that what I''m facing is a BSA troop within a troop, consisting of my son and myself. The SM doesn''t want me to move the older boys along, and doesn''t want me to provide training that less than 95% of the troop attends . . . even if he doesn''t have to come, and even if it''s open to everyone. The lack of training, coupled with the desire to have the troop progress is leading to half-a__ing the requirements, since the kids don''t know how to do what they are supposed to do.

 

Just got a new example this AM. My son had sent the leaders a plan for some specific requirement fulfillment on an upcoming camping trip. This is something both he and some other boys need to do. There has been ZERO troop provided training for this skill. The plan my son sent was simple, but fulfilled the requirements 100%. We''d made arrangements as a family to provide him with the training HE needs. Yet, the leader reaction was to ''suggest'' that he go to a more elaborate version of the plan, though again, there''s no troop plan for training.

 

I''d tell him to ignore the ''suggestion'', except that I think it would negatively affect his advancement. So, I will train him myself, to the point that he can actually do the things he''s supposed to do, plus the additional things the leader wants.

 

The other boys don''t have anyone at home to train them. So most likely what will happen is that they''ll get ''help'' (= an adult will do it for them) while ''completing'' their requirement. This not only devalues the requirement and the rank, but it deprives them of both the skill and the earned self-confidence.

 

The existing troop leadership is deeply embedded in a web of close personal relationships with the district leadership. I''m coming to suspect that this is what really motivates and drives them, and that they are bored with actually working with the boys.

 

More "square knots", more ''leadership recognition'' and so on! I''m about ready to vow I''ll NEVER wear a square knot! In truth, I don''t think that they realize what they are doing, or that they are deliberately short-changing the boys. It''s just what''s evolved over time.

 

 

 

. . . the real question is, what should I do?

 

Trying to ''reform'' this troop seems like a highly doubtful goal. Even when I''m ''helping'', I tend to come across in an overpowering manner. Trying to ''reform'' a troop, without provoking war, is probably outside (way outside!) my skill set. I''d very much like to avoid, both on principle and for my son''s sake, leaving behind a bunch of nuked relationships.

 

+ Am I likely, among the 20 or so troops within driving range, to find one that really tries to DO the stuff the SM-LST training teaches? Or, are these goals just ''ideals'' that are very, very rarely realized?

 

+ If such a troop does exist, any ideas on how to find it? (I can''t ask at the Council office -- this troop was their answer to that question. -- I''d already read up on the ''boy-lead'' concept BEFORE my son entered Boy Scouts.)

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

GAHillBilly,

 

What you wrote in response to me is exactly what I think your district and council training chairs need to hear. Constructive means that it gives them something to work from (as opposed to "this training just stunk"). Constructive doesn''t have to be positive. In your case, I can sympathize with your inability to find anything positive to say!

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

GaHillBilly, I hear your concern and feel your pain.

 

My suggestions are:

 

To keep doing what you know to be the right thing(and BSA policy) whether the rest of the troop follows or not. You will benefit, your son will get the opportunities he needs, and the parents of the troop may very well see that your son is doing it better and wonder why their sons are "lip syncing" and not really getting it done.

 

To visit the other troops as prospective members if you are certain you will be unable to stay in the current situation and if they have no intention of changing. It may also give you positive perspectives on where you are at now.

 

Realize that there is probably not a "perfect" troop maybe one that is perfect for you but probably no perfect troops.

 

The only consolation for me is that our new leadership and new committee want to change - now, if I can just keep setting the uniforming example....

 

[Eamonn 61]

Seems to a lot going on in this thread.

In our area for most courses you have to have taken the course, before you can present it. (We don''t offer the Trainer Development course very often, so we have to use people who may not have taken that course.)

In the past here in the forum we have looked at: Who should present it?

Is it better to have a first class presenter?

Or better to have someone who isn''t as good at presenting but has experience with that program?

 

Offering two courses in one day?

This sound like a win, win situation. Taking up less time from the participants and the training team.

I however think it''s a mistake.

While the NLE isn''t a bad course (I hate that silly bridge!!) It can seem a little like a waste of time to anyone who has been in Scouting for a while. But having said that. A lot of the problems that came up I had to deal back when I was serving as District Commish and Chair, had answers that could be found in the NLE material.

NLE does take about two hours.

A lot does depend on :

The people presenting.

The number of participants.

How actively the participants participate. Do they ask a lot of questions? Is there one person who want to use the course to give his or her pet peeve an airing? (A good presenter knows how to manage this situation)

 

I''m not in favor of mandatory training. My hope is that scouter''s attend the training''s because they want to or feel they have a need to attend. Kinda goes hand in hand with the discussion that we are having about the methods and uniforming. But if a knot, bead, badge or some sort of dingle-dangle spurs people on to attend? I don''t see any harm in it.

 

Of course if we take "Every Boy Deserves A Trained Leader" to heart the Training teams have to go out of their way to make training''s as user friendly as possible.

Not everyone works Mon-Fri. 9 -5.

Some people can''t make an all day training, and so on.

The dates are as a rule set long before any course starts. The course is promoted as much as possible.

No training team wants to keep a date free only to find out at the last minute that the course has been canceled due to lack of people signing up.

If anyone isn''t getting the information they need to contact the District Training Chair. If he is at fault he or she will try to fix the problem. However a lot of times it seems that someone in the unit does have all the information and for some reason isn''t willing to share it.

 

I have had problems with the Boy Scout Leader Specific Training.

With the ceremony at the end it does take about nine hours.

I have tried spreading it over 3 nights. But trying to find an agreeable start time (When people can make it home and get to where the course is) is hard. Even starting at 1830 means that some people are not going to get home until about 2300.

The course is hard on the sitter!!

The videos are really good, but a lot of the good stuff seems to be "Hidden". In order to get everything out of them, you need to view them a couple of times. Of course this isn''t going to happen on the day.

I''m real big on handouts. When using Power Point I as a rule print and copy all the slides and hand them out after the presentation. I don''t read the slide word for word. But sometimes this confuses the participants! They think I have missed something.

I do think some of the material in the specific training could be moved to the outdoor training, when there is a lot more free time on hand. (Friday night and after the campfire.)

Lunch is a very important part of the course!!

Not only for the food. I like to eat with the participants and try to get to know them, while getting a feel for how the course is going and if the participants are happy. I try and get the presenters to eat with the participants (Not as some elite staff.) This also gives the participants an opportunity to go over anything they might want to ask.

 

As to what happens after any training?

The training''s if presented properly!! Are not in any way about trying to put any unit or group down.

They should outline what works and provide good and accurate information about the guidelines set by the BSA.

Please believe me, that as someone who has been involved in adult leader training for a good while. Nothing is more frustrating than having a group of participants who seem really keen on trying to do things as they should be done, but knowing that once these leaders get back to the units they serve they will hear "We don''t do it that way!!"

No one in Scouting carries a big stick!!

No one can force a unit or unit leader to follow the program.

The training teams can present the information as it is in the syllabus. Some team members might offer ideas or suggestions about what worked and didn''t work for them. But once the course participant returns to his or her unit, what happens next is out of their hands.

Some leaders return to the unit on the "Training High".

They want to try and change everything all at once!!

Needless to say this rarely happens and at times does manage to upset the other leaders in the unit.

Change can and does happen!! But it takes time and needs to be managed with kid gloves.

 

After each course we hand out a course evaluation sheet.

This is taken very seriously and is taken to heart.

 

There are times when the person in charge of the course makes a big mistake.

I remember once allowing an old timer who knows a lot about Scouting to be a presenter (He''d pestered the heck out of me!!) I''d made sure he had all the material he needed, I''d checked that he knew how much time he had and was good to go.

Come the day, he got up in his full uniform complete with campaign hat. He then started to spend 15 minutes talking about his darn hat!!

We had to cut him off, but were now running over, so other parts of the course were rushed and maybe not given the care and attention that they deserved.

Of course he was never asked to be on staff again. In fact he is mad at me to this day for not adding his name to the list of possible Wood Badge staffers.

There are some really fine units in Georgia. I spent a week with a group from the Atlanta area, they really seemed to have got their act together and the Scouts were on the receiving end of a wonderful Scouting program, full of adventure, fun and while maybe the Scouts didn''t know it the aims of Scouting were being met in full force. Of course this didn''t happen overnight. It took time, it took dedication from the adults who seemed to have a great grasp of both the game and the purpose.

I can''t say for sure, but maybe? Just maybe at one time they took the BSA training''s and found the tools that they took home worked for them.

Ea.