The "old" WB course?

[woodeaglevigil 10]

The last three days I have been contemplating on whether or not to sign up for the course my council is about to put on in late October and early November this year (SR-797 -- 10/27-29 and 11/10-12/2006)--my council's 3rd course of Wood Badge For The 21st Century.

 

I went through Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge during the fall of 1998 (SR-216). I was beaded on 8/30/1999. Then I served on the staff as an Assistant Quartermaster for my council's first Wood Badge For The 21st Century course (SR-579)--held during September 2003.

 

Even though I knew that ones who had taken prior versions of Wood Badge could take the current version (my council's first course of the current version held during 9/2003 had 3 participants that were bead holders from the prior version of Wood Badge), I figure I was eliminated from taking the current version as a participant since I was on the staff for our council's first Wood Badge For The 21st Century course.

 

However, at a Wood Badge Reunion/Promotion my council held this past weekend, I was very surprised when I was asked by the course mentor for our council's upcoming course (she was the course director for the last course held during September 2004) if I was planning on taking this upcoming Wood Badge course and she and about 2-3 others on the staff started encouraging me to take it (my council is still trying to meet the minimum required number of participants (30) so that they can hold the course, they are somewhere in the 20s at the moment).

 

I was wondering if there are any others out there that took one of the prior versions of Wood Badge as a participant, served on staff for the current version, and then took the current version as a participant?

 

I know I would have fun, meet new people, and learn something from it, I just find it a little weird that I, a prior staff member of the current version of Wood Badge (a 3-bead holder), would now be a participant in a course of the current version of Wood Badge.

[SR540Beaver 116]

woodeagle,

 

As far as I know, there isn't anything that would prevent you from taking the course again. I'm not sure what you would gain from it since you earned your beads in the old course and staffed the new course. While I am not working within a patrol as a staff member, I am experiencing all of the presentations and activities again just like the participants. Our CD has decided not to have staff work tickets, but heck, most of us do "tickets" all the time anyway. I've already got my beads and as a staffer I'm seeing the course again. I can't think of a reason to do it as a participant again......but that is just me.

[woodeaglevigil 10]

If I was to take the current version as a participant later this fall in my council, it will also feel weird in that several of the staff (at least 4) on the current course are ones I served along with when I was on staff in 2003 and two others on the current staff are ones that were participants in the course I served on the staff for.

 

I was also told that I couldn't where my beads from my prior Wood Badge experiences while I was working on my ticket for the current version. I do see why that is done, but I worked hard to earned those beads from my prior Wood Badge experiences and today, those beads are as much a part of my uniform as is the uniform shirt itself is and it would be difficult for me to not be able to wear those beads for a period of time (up to a maximum time period of 18 months).

[Eagledad 2780]

OK, do I understand right, you are considering taking the course that you have already staffed because the course may not make?

 

This is a new one on me, but I can't help feel the time would be better spent helping a struggling unit or district committee.

 

I'm really courious to read Eamonn's (WB guru) opinion on this. How would the CD pick a patrol for a person with your experience?

 

Barry

[SR540Beaver 116]

Ditto to Barry's comments. Perhaps your time would also be better spent out recruiting new participants for the WB course instead of taking it to save the course.

 

WB for the 21st Century has allowed "old course" participants to staff up until now. I guess that was because there were no new course people to staff until recently. To staff now, you either had to of taken the new course or already staffed the new course if you were an old course participant. If you were old course and have not staffed 21st century, you can not staff without taking the course as a participant.

 

I think this is a silly rule as do some other scouters I know. Old course folks will have to do staff development and can easily learn the new material without re-doing WB. But, thems the rules. I have two very good scouter friends who have been interested in staffing for the past several years and have thrown their name in the hat more than once. They are both very active scouters, well respected, tenured and both Silver Beaver receipiants. For whatever reason, they have both been overlooked for staffing. Now the rule comes down that they have to re-do WB if they want to staff. You can guess their answer to that.....and I don't blame them As a result, they will miss out on getting to staff and future participants will miss out on having a couple of great staffers.

 

I do not understand why this rule has come down. The old course lent itself to abuse as a good old boys club. The new course requires 30% new staff and once a person has served as CD, they can no longer serve on staff. This busted up the good old boys club. Refusing old course folks to staff without taking the new course is just something I don't see the logic behind.

[emb021 16]

I'd have to agree with Beaver. Some who has gotten 3 beads and been on staff for WB21C seems strange to want to be a participant.

 

I, too, had gotten my beads doing BSLWB back in the late 80s, and finally got my third as a staffer on WB21C. The policies regarding who can be participant, staff, etc for WB21C seems to have been changing over the years.

 

When WB21C was rolled out, no one who had participated in the old WB was allowed to be a participant. This was done to allow new people the change to be on the course. I had heard of a weekend 'WB refresher' course that would give us 'oldies' the new stuff, but I could never get a straight answer if this was a National thing or a local thing with National approval.

 

Obviously, old participants/staffers had to be the staffers on the new course. As noted, I believe it was this year (2006) that they allowed old participants to go thru the new course, and also require that any staffers either be participants in the new course, or a past staffer on the new course. I also know that the rules for who could be CD was changing. To be a CD does require one to have experience in different positions of a WB course. On the course I was staffing, the guy who was going to be the CD on the next year's course was serving as a TG, because of these new requirements, while our course's CD told me that he didn't have to do this, because he was still under the previous rules.

 

I can feel for the 2 people you mentioned who wanted to be on staff and got snubbed. I never sought out a staff position on the old course, but wanted to learn more about the new course, and so for several years tried to get on staff in my home council, only to be repeated rebuffed (all the while getting form letters from our SE to be a participant on the new courses). I finally got a staff position with my new council, but still am not happy with how my home council treated me.

 

I can see the idea behind old participants being on staff for the new course. I had a learning curve as a staffer on the new course to find out how things worked and fit myself in. I think that is part of the concern.

 

[Eamonn 61]

woodeaglevigil

I really can't see why you would want to do the 21st Century course again?

Anyone who has sat through the development meetings that go into presenting a course, should have a very good understanding of the course.

If I were the Council Training Chair or the Council Wood Badge Advisor, I might well be talking with the CD about using you and your skills as a staffer.

While I'm sure you are the nicest fellow on the planet. My big fear is that other participants are going to look too you and not the Staff.

While the content / syllabus for each and every course is supposed to be the same the Course Director and the staff of each course develop the course in different ways.

When I was CD,I really wanted the participants to grasp the idea of their own personal values leading them to their Vision and Mission, which will lead them to writing a worth while ticket. Not a list of tasks that just needs to be done. Other CD's have seen diversity as something that they really want to stress. The CD gets the staff to buy into this at the development meetings.Of course if you are not on staff then you haven't attended the development meetings, so if the participants look to you they are not receiving or might not be receiving the course that the CD has in mind.

To be very honest if I was the CD you would be the last person that I'd want on the course as a participant.

But if there was no way of preventing you from attending. I would have to think about which Patrol? And which Troop Guide?

I used to like the pre-course meeting that we had in the old course. It gave the Scoutmaster an opportunity to look over the participants, meet them and get some sort of an idea who they really were and find out if they had any special skills or needs. Now everything is dependent on the paperwork that participants send in. So in some respects placing who goes in which Patrol with whom is a bit of a crap shoot.

As a rule one Patrol is made up with people who do have special needs, they are placed nearest to the things that they will need or will involve less walking or traveling..

While I don't think I'm in any way a sexist, I wasn't keen on the idea of having only one female in a Patrol -I wouldn't have liked the idea of one man in a Patrol if the rest of the Patrol was female.

I really did try to make the Patrols as equal as I could in regard to skills and ability. We didn't have a Patrol of Eagle Scouts and then a Patrol of Den Leaders.

One problem we had was that we had our SE take the course.

At times some people feel having a professional around is a great opportunity to sound off and let him have a piece of their mind. I was careful to place him with people I thought would understand that he was just a participant. In fact when the course was over a good number of the participants said what a good sport he was for taking the course.

If I had to find a Patrol for you, I would place you with the Troop Guide who I thought would be able to manage you!! Someone with experience, a great sense of humor, but with a really great and hopefully a better understanding and knowledge of the program than you have.

I would forewarn that person that I wanted you to be treated as a participant and that they were not to allow you to forget that you were a participant.

I would also have a word with you asking that you really try and not over take or take over the Patrol.

In the old Boy Scout course arriving at the Patrol site and having to get everything ready and supper cooked before the first session was done on purpose. It was supposed to bring the Patrol together and have them work as a team, even though the task was a little overwhelming.

Parts of the new course are a little like that, the idea that on day one some of the tasks that are presented will overwhelm and force the Patrol to communicate and force them to work as a team, dividing up the work load and dealing with the unexpected is there for a reason. Of course if you have been through the course it isn't unexpected. I know that I would have a hard time not wanting to give my Patrol the "Edge".

As an example I sat through Sea Scout Leader Advanced Training (Not Sea Badge) last January. Sadly the presenter kept trying to add his 2 cents to the course, most of which was either wrong or didn't agree with my way of thinking.

I sat there and seen that I had two choices:

* I could just let it ride. Or

* I could be a smart Alec, interrupt and try and correct him.

I choose to let it ride and when the weekend was over wrote to the organizer.

But meanwhile I did talk to the other leaders from our Ship and mentioned that this guy was not right.

Maybe I was wrong to have said anything? But I was ready to burst and had to tell someone.

While we all want each and every presentation to be perfect, not every presentation is. While I was developing the staff I told them that if they did forget or omit something it wasn't the end of the world. They were the only people who knew and we would find a way of covering the bits that they might have missed. Having an ex-staffer there takes away this comfort zone.

Also with the requirement that requires a percentage of new people to be on staff, I think you might intimidate them.

Please don't think that I'm in any way being nasty to you, as I say you are the nicest person on the planet.

I'd much sooner see you step up to staff a course as a Troop Guide (the best position on staff) An ASM or SPL. If one day you hope to be the CD you will have had to have been a Guide, I think that is what you should be shooting for.

 

Barry -I don't see myself as a guru!!

I do think that I spent a lot of time trying to find out what the syllabus was really trying to say.

While I know that my Wood Badge days are over. (Not that I'm entirely happy with that!!) My one great hope is that one day someone will invite me to do the "Leaving A Legacy" presentation.

I do think the world of the WB experience.

There is a lot to be said for bringing together 60 or more people who share the same values and passion. It is and should be fun, but just like real world Scouting it's fun with a purpose.

Staffers are there to serve the participants, the example they set should send the participants back to whatever they do in Scouting as being better able to serve and lead. While the course is good and fine, the real worth is found in what happens next?

Maybe we should think about sending out a sheet 2 or 3 years after the course to see if those who did attend are using the "Tools" or if it was just a good time?

I have avoided the discussions about the history of the course, I don't really know that much about what happened with WB on this side of the pond.

I do think that having served as a staff member, I took the time to look at what I was doing and trying to do in Scouting.

While I'm not bad at the Scoutcraft side of things and I really enjoy being with people especially young people, for a long time I was so busy playing with ropes, teaching how a map and a compass works, going to camp and all that good stuff, which I still think is important and does help us deliver a worth while program.

I never really took the time to think about what my values are or where I was going with what I was doing.

Of course if I didn't have any idea, how was I supposed to help the people I serve find their way?

While it might sound conceited or big headed I'm aware that a lot of the Scouter's in our area look to me or at me as an example. A good number of the older Scouts know who I am and seem to think that most of the time I will try and do what I can to help them. If they ask a question I will give them a fair and straight answer, maybe not what they want to hear, but the truth.

Scouting is very fortunate that it has so many good and dedicated adults who take the time and at times the money to work with and for the kids in the area in which they live.

But we as adults need to never forget that the kids we serve are investing their time and their youth in us. We should feel honored and privileged that a young person wants to give something that he or she will never get back to us.

If spending six days and a couple of hundred bucks helps us make make their investment more worthwhile, it really is a small price to pay.

Eamonn.

 

[eagle-pete 11]

Eamonn

 

Although I have not served on staff, nor did I go through the "old" Wood Badge course, I appreciate a lot of what you have said here. I may be invited to serve on a Wood Badge staff one day, and much of what you have said is very insightful.

 

Indeed, the staff's main responsibility is to serve the participants. The staff on the course I attended certainly did that. I felt as though we, the participants, were the crowning jewel of the course. And that the staff was there for us, not for themselves. Not one staffer made me feel like they were there to get their third (or fourth) bead.

 

Concerning what has "happened next"; I make a point to contact my Troop Guide on a regular basis. We talk about Scouting and what's going on in each other's Scouting lives, and we discuss Wood Badge too. It's been about 3 years since I took the course and I am still doing what I can in our Troop and in our District to "make a difference". Absolutely, I use the tools I learned from Wood Badge, particularly those that I developed further during the time that I worked my ticket. It only makes sense that I was able to incorporate those skills best that I put into practical use.

 

I understand where you are coming from concerning the whole "guru" thing. Although I don't have years and years of experience behind me, I am probably considered among the more experienced in our Troop/Pack. We have several new leaders with the "deer in the headlights" look in their faces when it comes to Scouting, and since I am readily available (and Trained), I am often approached for assistance. I have noticed that new volunteers are constantly being recruited in Scouting. I think it is important to keep in mind that - even if we don't invite it - new leaders look to those of us who wear the recognizable insignia which flags us as "Leaders" in scouting. Whether we want to believe it or not, the beads do set us apart as experienced and knowledgeable examples of a good Scout Leader. I would go so far as to say, we, Wood Badge Trained Scouters, have somewhat of a responsibility to assist new leaders and guide them in presenting a High Quality program. I don't think you sound conceited. I think it's the truth!

 

I agree with you that there are a tremendous amount of excellent people associated with the BSA; however, I don't believe it is just good fortune that Scouting has good dedicated and passionate leaders who genuinely care about the youth they serve. There are a handful of organizations in the world which are truly dedicated to the care and development of mankind, or to a segment of society. A very few organizations, such as the BSA, tend to draw the best of mankind to it. It is human nature to want to be a part of such a noble association; the mission of which is to aid in the development of youth - Our cause is altruistic in nature. No wonder we have some of the best of leaders.

 

Thank you for putting our relationship to our youth so eloquently. The honor is, indeed, ours to serve them.

 

Wise words from an olde tyme Scouter like yourself is always a welcome reprieve.

 

Eagle Pete

[SR540Beaver 116]

E,

 

Even though it isn't in the new syllabus, our council continues to hold the pre-course meeting. It is not mandatory. Most participants seem to enjoy it as it allows staff to answer questions important to them face to face. It also allows the staff to get a feel for the participants as you mentioned. I think that the pre-course meeting can make the difference for some people who are straddling the fence on showing up for the course or not. It seems to be a win win for us.

[purcelce 11]

Interesting thread...

 

Lots of folks I've talked to that have gone thru WB have told me that this would be the "top of the mountian" experience. Even though I've only completed one weekend of WB, I haven't had the "awakening" yet. I was even was pulled to the side by the CD and two other staff members asking me to not participate in one of the events, becuase I had been through it at NLS. I agreed to sit back and watch, but it kind of ticked me off that I couldn't help my patrol out, plus I paid to take the course, not sit out.

 

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

purce,

 

I always cringe when WB is referred to as a mountain top experience because it sets up expectations and some folks go into it either expecting to much or being skeptical. For many it is, but it shouldn't be sould that way. I have less problems with it being sold as the pinnacle of scouter education because it is the top leadership course taught by BSA. But everyone takes something different from it. When I went thru, we had 1 person from our pack on staff and 4 scouters from the pack as participants. We got a lot from it and came back encouraging our fellow leaders to go. One rather cynical/skeptical fellow did and ended up TYPING a six page, single space critique of the course. He was looking so hard for the mountain top experience that he seemed to miss the whole point of the course.

 

Woodbadge teaches much of the same things you can learn in course offered in the corporate world at much higher rates. The difference is that it is put into a scouting framework and you go because you want to instead of your boss telling you that you have no choice. For me personally, that made a huge difference in what I got out of the course by being somewhere I wanted to be and surrounded by other people passionate for scouting like I was. That was a big factor in my "mountain top" experience. It showed me what scouting can be. I got to spend 6 days with a diverse group of people who developed into a great team. It wasn't just about the material, it was about the whole expeience for me.

 

The syllabus requires the CD to ask people who have played "the game" to sit back so people who have not played can learn from it. They were not trying to keep you from getting your money's worth. Instead, they wanted to make sure that your patrol mates got their money's worth. Think of going to a magician's show and shouting from the audience how each trick is done. It kind of ruins it or everyone else. Sure, you wanted to help your patrol, but would they have gotten the full impact of what the game taught if you did?

 

WB is a great course and a great experience and a great tradition. Enjoy it and take what you can from it. Don't let the sales job influence you in what to expect.

[Lisabob 13]

Hey purce, for what it's worth, I found the whole experience kind of gelled sometime during the second weekend. Don't know how many others felt that way too? But I tend to agree w/ Beaver too - don't let the hype get in the way of enjoying the course on whatever level.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[Eamonn 61]

Beave old Pal,

Much as I hate to be a pain.

At the CD Directors conference CD'S make a pledge to follow the syllabus.

"Even though it isn't in the new syllabus"

Means that it isn't part of the course.

I would have loved to held a pre-course meeting and the question was raised at the conference. In fact someone mentioned that they had a participant show up who was blind and hadn't bothered to mention it on any of the paper work.

The reason given, by the people who had put the course together was that by design they wanted to cut back on the amount of time both the staff and participants had to devote to the course.

I think purcelce does make a valid point.

A lot of the new training's seem to be very similar to Wood Badge (OJ attended a OA Officer Training which was very like WB, even having the participants write goals which they were to meet before they received their patch) If we are not careful, the course might become very much a been there, done that sort of thing.

I have not seen or had much to do with the new course that replaced JLTC -Heck I can't even get the name of it right NYL?

There was talk in our Council of inviting Venturers to attend. Even though I didn't know the course I wasn't keen on mixing the two groups.

Quarterdeck Training is real big in Sea Scouting. Sadly the Sea Scout Manual does make mention of it being needed but that's about it. The National Web Site directs me to the Sea Scout Skippers /Leader Handbook which has been out of print since BP was a Boy (Well almost!)

I'll admit the temptation to "Borrow" a few bits from WB did occur to me but the Angel on my right should beat the devil on my left. I have managed to put together a fairly decent course borrowing stuff from other Sea Scouter's, the old course, venturing courses, and some stuff from White Stag.

emb021, makes a valid argument about specialized training's. I kinda think we should be in the business of giving the people what they want. I have presented National Camp School Training to Cub Scout Day Camp Directors, some of these only do Day Camp and that's it. Sure they might get something from WB,but they are getting what they want and need from Camp School.

While many of us live and breath Scouting, there are Scouter's who do have a hard time finding time. Adding yet another course even if it is not required in order to get the stuff we should be giving them any way just doesn't seem the way to go!

We tweaked the WB course and changed a few things. (After my time!!) I really think that the time has come to take a long hard look at the Specific Training's.

In our area the Cub Scouter's are not returning for the next training, it's hard enough to get them there once!! The Scoutmaster is the most boring thing I have ever sat through and does little to drive home the important things needed to manage the running of a Troop.

The Mentor idea is a nice one, sadly we can't find enough Commissioners to fill Commissioner spots, finding another set of willing adults would be really hard.

Maybe we should be honest and admit that in most parts of the Country Commissioner Service is just not working and rethink what service we want to offer -I'd vote for more Trained Trainers, people who could go to a unit and cover the practical stuff at meetings and maybe the odd weekend, if only as a day visitor. Or attend a few meetings and if nothing else show the Leader where the information he or she needs is in that wonderful handbook -Who knows people might start to even read the darn things and not just carry them in their Scout bag!!

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[purcelce 11]

Beave,

Don't get me wrong, I'm having a great time at wb, I've been wanting to take it for the past two years. I'm one of the few that sings the loudest, dances around in between sessions, and I'm the brunt of many good one line zingers that the staff throw out there.

I guess I'm expecting more out of it. But I do have one more weekend

 

Bobwhites rule the world...

 

[emb021 16]

"A lot of the new training's seem to be very similar to Wood Badge (OJ attended a OA Officer Training which was very like WB, even having the participants write goals which they were to meet before they received their patch) If we are not careful, the course might become very much a been there, done that sort of thing. "

 

You're speaking about the OA's National Leadership Seminar. Actually, what happened was that some elements of NLS was incorporated into the new WB. Other elements are the same because they are providing the same leadership concepts (Situational Leadership and Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model). Keep in mind that NLS is MAINLY for youth lodge officers, who would probably not take WB for several years, IF they become adult leaders.

 

As to the goals. In NLS you make 3 goals, to be done within 6 months (i believe). The setting and achieve goals is not something unique to WB. I personally feel its one thing that makes ANY course better.

 

"I have not seen or had much to do with the new course that replaced JLTC -Heck I can't even get the name of it right NYL?

There was talk in our Council of inviting Venturers to attend. Even though I didn't know the course I wasn't keen on mixing the two groups."

 

National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT). Go get a copy of the syllabus. Again, NYLT does cover the same leadership concepts (SL, TDM/TLM), and using new terms for the different stages that have now been moved into WB.

 

I've heard people say the same thing in my area. I disagree. Why? Because NYLT is all about training BOY to be Troop-level leaders. A Venturers (are you going to allow the girls to also attend) would be lost with all the troop terms that are meaningless to a Venturer.

 

"Quarterdeck Training is real big in Sea Scouting. Sadly the Sea Scout Manual does make mention of it being needed but that's about it. The National Web Site directs me to the Sea Scout Skippers /Leader Handbook which has been out of print since BP was a Boy (Well almost!)"

 

Actually, its only been out of print since the 70s. There is a softcopy of what is supposed to be the next edition. I know here there is going to a CD with the Skipper Handbook, and maybe the long rumoured Crew Leader Manual (which hasn't been inprint since the 50s...).

 

I would think they would have info on Quarterdeck training at the Sea scout site. I think I've also see it at the National Quartermaster Association site.

 

Sea Scouts can attend VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak-X. Also, work to get your Sea Scouts to attend SEAL. That's Sea Scout Advanced Leader Training.

 

"I'll admit the temptation to "Borrow" a few bits from WB did occur to me but the Angel on my right should beat the devil on my left. I have managed to put together a fairly decent course borrowing stuff from other Sea Scouter's, the old course, venturing courses, and some stuff from White Stag. "

 

Go for it. Nothing stopping you. In my home council we put together elements of different courses to create an 'advanced JLTC'. Sadly we only did that once. But they've also been successful with a great University of Scouting program that includes a College of Scouting Arts degree program, College of Commissioner Science degree program, and a new Advanced Outdoor Training program.