The "old" WB course?

[Jeffrey H 25]

Thanks everyone for your helpful thoughts. It appears that I stepped on some toes, but that was my intent. I wanted to get some good experienced insight.

 

My Cubmaster and I (the ACM) plan to take WB next August at Philmont. Its more expensive but we want to get out of our council and go the Rockies.

 

[Kudu 186]

Jeff writes:

 

I appreciate your comments but the Scoutmaster Handbook that you quoted from is dated from 1972. This edition of the Handbook was the beginning of the "new and improved" Scouting program which proved to be a disaster. The BSA has long since abandoned that program and has moved back to an emphasis on outdoor skills.

 

No. "Boy Leadership" was removed from the Patrol Method in 1972 and elevated to its "new and improved" status as "Leadership Development," an independent Method of Scouting. Leadership became an Advancement requirement, which required that William Hillcourt's position-specific "Patrol Leader Training" (which included a Patrol Hike and a Patrol Campout) be abandoned to make room for "Junior Leader Training:" the same set of abstract leadership skills taught in post-1972 Wood Badge. In theory these skills could be used not just by Patrol Leaders but by the equally worthy Troop Librarians, Scribes, and Historians. A politically correct least common denominator.

 

Baden-Powell awarded one Wood Bead for his Theoretical course and one Wood Bead for what he called the "Practical" outdoor course. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for theory.

 

BSA Wood Badge for the 21st Century places NO emphasis on outdoor skills, and this has its roots in the "new and improved" Scouting program of 1972.

 

Most American Scouters seem to be more than happy with what the Scouting corporation has decided, but you asked about what Baden-Powell would have emphasized :-)

 

Kudu

and a good 'ole Beaver too.

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

this is my understanding of the "new" 21rst Century WoodBadge versus the the version it replaced.

 

The New version does not emphasize outdoor skills, outdoor skills are emphasized in the Outdoor skills training session albeit I understand some outdoor skill classes are better staffed and run than others. Hanging around this Forum I have picked up a few hot topics, one of which is that it seems like the pool of volunteers to support the program is shrinking and many wear multiple hats. To address the situation the BSA developed the new Wood Badge to train people to be organized leaders who could use their training in multiple roles. Whether the participant is a Cubmaster, an Assistant Scoutmaster a Chair of a Venturing Crew or the Treasurer of a Varsity Team they can apply the skills taught at Wood Badge for the 21rst and the BSA doesnt have to run training programs for each section of the program. I am sure a lot of tradition was lost in the Wood Badge program when the emphasis went away from outdoor skills, but not all adult scouting positions require outdoor skills and to continue to emphasize skills that only a portion of the group will utilize does not seem a wise choice.

 

There is a thread running in this section on Wood Badge elitism and arrogance and I beleive the previous versions fed that attitude much more than the current version (then as a participant of the 21rst century edition, maybe I am arrogant and elitist to it).

 

If faced with the same factors as the BSA faces, what would B-P do? Well, we dont know, but I dont think, in my opinion, he would continue to train people to tie knots when their role in scouting would never take them back to ropes.

 

 

[emb021 16]

"Baden-Powell awarded one Wood Bead for his Theoretical course and one Wood Bead for what he called the "Practical" outdoor course. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for theory."

 

No. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for completing your practical, AKA, your ticket.

 

The course is the theory, the ticket is the practical.

 

 

[Kudu 186]

emb021 writes:

 

The BSA awards two Wood Beads for completing your practical, AKA, your ticket. The course is the theory, the ticket is the practical.

 

If that is really true then why don't you receive your theory bead when you finish the indoor course, and your practical bead if and when you finish your ticket? In the context of a discussion about Baden-Powell and the emphasis on outdoor skills in "old" Wood Badge, the BSA's use of the term "practical" for the ticket is just word play. "Practical" Wood Badge refers to the mastery of Troop Ceremonies, Fieldcraft, Woodcraft, and Signcraft.

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

If faced with the same factors as the BSA faces, what would B-P do?

 

We don't need a time machine to answer that one. In the rest of the world, people who attend the Theoretical course receive the one bead Theoretical course Wood Badge. Why should people who never got their knees dirty wear two Wood Beads? That would be like awarding every Staffer four Wood Beads. Two beads should indicate that no matter what your role in Scouting is, you have "practical" training in how the Aim of Citizenship is acheived through camping in Patrols.

 

Well, we don't know, but I don't think, in my opinion, he would continue to train people to tie knots when their role in scouting would never take them back to ropes.

 

Baden-Powell's equivalent to Cub Scouts includes plenty of knots, as well as 14 nights of camping, 12 day hikes and 6 night hikes. Rovers (adult advancement beyond the equivalent of Eagle) requires a Squire to go on a 14 mile overnight campout with his Rover Sponsor before his application for membership is even considered!

 

The idea that "Scouting" is any corporate product offered by the BSA so long as it aims at Citizenship, Character, and Fitness is a direct result of the 1972 "new and improved" program which took the outing out of Scouting. Varsity Scouting and the new Cub Scout soccer leagues are NOT Scouting, at least as defined by the BSA's Congressional Charter as including training in Scoutcraft using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Some may cry that it is unrealistic to think that Scoutcraft programs can support six-figure professional salaries and generous retirement benefits in the 21st century. Fine. Just end the corporate monopoly and make room for volunteer Scouting associations that don't call sports and indoor programs "Scouting."

 

Kudu

 

 

[emb021 16]

Kudu-

 

Your description of the awarding of WB beads (which I am familiar with), AFAIK, only occured during the early years of WB, and was soon replaced with the method that we are familiar with today: receiving 2 beads upon the completion of your ticket, which was the practical application of what was learned in the course. (and afaik, BP was alive when this change was made)

 

Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong. BP's first idea was to wear the beads on your hat. He himself, changed this.

 

The Scouting Milestones site has a good page on the history and development of WB.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I apologize Kudu, I didn't make myself as clear as I thought. Let me try this again. The way I see Wood Badge for the 21rst Century is that BSA designed it so it would give organizational and leadership skills to every adult who was associated with a troop. (also pack, crew, team, etc. but we will stick with a troop for this explanation.

 

The troop has its' requisite scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster, are these the only one who should be allowed to "Do" Wood Badge? What about the Committee chairs, treasurers and Advancement Chairs? Do they not also need leadership and organizational skills?

 

WHat about Distirct and Council positions? These people may not camp a single night in years, but do they not deserve leadership and organizational skills?

 

To me the biggest change was making Wood Badge more open and less clique-ish. Allowing more people to participate has to be better, isnt it?

 

I think you misunderstood my knot analogy. I dont see the reason for teaching outdoor skills to many people in scouting who dont interact one on one with the youth. District and Council position holders may never a camp a day in years, but that doesnt mean the work they do is not valuable to the program. I hope I explained it better this time.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[SR540Beaver 116]

Someone took the outing out of Scouting? Why weren't we notified? Where is the memo? We'll need to notify our boys that they need to get with the program and cancel the new annual calendar they put together. Maybe our two crews who returned from Northern Tier in July can send their pictures and patches back.

[scoutmom111 10]

So if the new WB is suppose to be leadership training... and for people that don't interact one on one with the boys and camp....and doesn't include scout craft... (like knots, first aid, backpacking etc) then I took the old WB and I want credit for doing it!!!

 

***Mama Bear is growling again.***

 

I wish they did have a separate scout craft training. It would be a good training to do every other year. Shoot, do youth protection one year and scout craft the next. It could even be part of the camporee and be something the adults could be doing while the boys are doing their thing! It should be offered at summer camp for the adults that are there (our camp did offer postition spacific training this year). I think WB could be leadership only... shoot give one bead for leadership only and two if you do the camping/scout craft and leadership together. It wouldn't hurt my feelings. Maybe you'd get more people to come.

 

[emb021 16]

"So if the new WB is suppose to be leadership training... and for people that don't interact one on one with the boys and camp....and doesn't include scout craft... (like knots, first aid, backpacking etc) then I took the old WB and I want credit for doing it!!!"

 

Uh, I took BSLWB, which was leadership training + scoutcraft skills. I got credit for taking it because I earned my beads.

 

"I wish they did have a separate scout craft training."

 

Its called Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills. Your council should be offering it.

 

"It would be a good training to do every other year. Shoot, do youth protection one year and scout craft the next."

 

Nothing stops your council from creating new courses. YPT is given on-line, btw.

 

"It could even be part of the camporee and be something the adults could be doing while the boys are doing their thing! It should be offered at summer camp for the adults that are there (our camp did offer postition spacific training this year)."

 

Ask your council to do that. Many councils do University of Scouting events. My home council recently added an outdoor skills component.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I may need to bow out of this discussion because I am being very misunderstood. I never said that Wood Badge was FOR people who don't interact with youth nor camp. What I said was that Wood Badge presents leadership and organizational skills that everyone in scouting could use, that it is not limited only to a select few. If you want outdoor scoutcrafty skills take "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills"

[scoutmom111 10]

Old Grey Eagle -

 

You weren't misunderstood... I forgot to but my **giggle** and **smile** in my messages. I took the new woodbadge, but there was a lot of old wood badge in the course. I know that the new WB is for everyone, and I have taken the out doorleadership skills. I've been asking other scouters why they haven't taken WB and they said that it is a repeat of the outdoorskills with more work thrown in... While I understand their viewpoint, (there was ALOT of scoutskills in my WB) I do try to let them know that if we all practiced the same leadership viewpoint (with individual styles) it would really help the troop.

 

I would love to see our council have a one day class that is just scout skills.... Kind of a piece of the outdoor skills with out all the patrol stuff. We could get people to take that course... then maybe ease them into the outdoor... then WB.... you know... hook them and reel them in **smile**.

 

I'm working my tickets (one done!!!) and I will get my beads! (But I still want to stick with the old codgers that tell me ... in my day, WB was tough!!! I really don't think I took WB lite!)

 

Have a great evening all -

 

I use to be a bear and a good ol' bear too....

 

Mama bear

[John-in-KC 311]

Scoutmom...

 

Sounds to me like your "For Self" ticket items are starting to come together ... learning outdoor skills.

 

In fact, sounds to me like organizing "continuing ed in outdoor skills" campouts could be a ticket item you'd enjoy

 

Seriously, there is a host of supplemental training available, emphasizing one or more areas of outdoor skills. District Roundtable Program Features and Skill Development sessions should be just two times when "Experten" (auf Deutsch) can come in and share their knowledge.

 

There's also informal skill training ... I've learned more about Dutch oven cookery by going to a friends place (he's a great field cook) and cooking with him!

 

At the other end, there are also training events emphasizing skill mastery available at the National High Adventure centers.

 

There's plenty in the middle, but it may have to be dug out.

 

OGE: I would hope your message is coming through, I got it:

 

WOODBADGE IS LEADERSHIP TRAINING. It applies to:

- Unit serving Scouters, running outdoor programs.

- Guys and gals doing year round camp maintenance/upkeep,

- Guys and gals on the Council Audit Committee

 

 

[emb021 16]

"I would love to see our council have a one day class that is just scout skills.... Kind of a piece of the outdoor skills with out all the patrol stuff. We could get people to take that course... then maybe ease them into the outdoor... then WB.... you know... hook them and reel them in **smile**. "

 

It can be done. Back in the 70s and 80s we had an event called "Show'n'Do" with this purpose in mind. You can also use the set of Outdoor Skills Instruction syllabi to put something together.

 

Also, some council add a lot of outdoor skill classes to their University of Scouting event. Dutch Oven cooking, camp gear, backpacking, etc. As I noted, my home council has added an entire "Advanced Field Operation" section of courses to their University of Scouting Arts event consisting of Backpacking & Hiking (3 hours), Pioneering (3 hours), and Leave No Trace (2 hours).

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Maybe Councils could tap the Scoutcraft Director of their Summer Camp and do some scout craft skill presentation. I know there is nothing more impressive than doing an eyesplice while talking to a scout about an upcomming event