Money Issues

[Roadkill Patrol 23]

I am a parent of a Bear cub and I am at odds on how to approach the Cub Scout committee in regards to our pack's finances. Here is a little background information:

 

The annual dues for scouts is $30. This is split between the pack account for advancements and to the specific den for den activities. During registration, if a scout selects the Boy's Life, they pay for the first year and the pack pays for every year after that. Recently, the pack informed parents that the dues were going to be raised because the cost to charter went up and other things. The chartering organization usually kicks in each year to pay the re-charter and sometimes extra $$.

 

Now the pack participates in the popcorn sale each year and has done well. For each scout's sales, 70% goes to Council, 30% stays at the pack level. The 30% is split with 20% going to the pack and 10% going to the individual's scout account.

 

For any outings the pack goes on, there is a fee for attendance, based on the activity. Sometimes there are big outings, which of course costs more to participate in. Throughout the year, there are get-togethers such as potlucks, lock-ins, where everyone contributes. The pack kicks in some crafts and some of the food.

 

Now this may sound like a normal pack operation based on how other packs operate (I assume). It seemed to me that it was set up pretty well to "pay to play" on outings and advancements. Some costs were offset with my son's scout account. I figured everything was running pretty smooth until I found out something that disturbed me about the dues increase.

 

As a parent, I decided to attend a committee meeting since I found out no other parents other than committee members were attending them. I was shocked when the treasurer's report was read and learned that the pack's general fund has over $9,000 in it!! This amount is separate from the scout's accounts, special funds for equipment purchases, uniform fund, and campership fund. It seems to me that the pack is hoarding money on the backs of the parents that are paying dues, and then increasing dues when it isn't warranted. The pack is definitely not starving for cash. There is no allocation for the general fund, such as planning a big trip, or making a big purchase.

 

Would you as a parent be outraged that you are required to pay more dues so the pack can stock up their bank account? How would you handle approaching the committee on this. We have a month until the next meeting. I am trying to get more parents to attend the next one. Is it uncommon for packs to have this much money on hand? I would like to see the pack chip in for free admission to a day camp or two coming up this year. At most, it would cost the pack only $300 and may get more attendance, but I want to approach this carefully.

[Lisabob 13]

I think that this is uncommon, but not unheard of. It depends a LOT on how the pack really works and what their cycle of events is. Maybe they have some fall events that they pay mostly out of pocket for, so that in the spring it looks like they have a ton of money but by January, they're down to very little.

 

Or, maybe, they are hoarding cash.

 

It is true that registration costs are going up from $10/scout to $15/scout this year, and not one dime of that goes to the pack (or to your council). That also doesn't cover Boys Life costs which, I think, are another $14 or so. That leaves no money from registration fees of $30 for anything else at all.

 

How well acquainted are you with the budget outlays in the fall? Things like buying rank books, uniform parts (hats, neckerchiefs, are fairly common items for some troops to provide), pinewood derby cars, etc. can add up quickly if the pack is large. Also in some councils, packs have to pay up front for product for next year's popcorn sale in September, and only get the profit in January/February. This can lead to what appear to be imbalances in the budget. While $9,000 seems a bit excessive, there could be explanations that make some sense.

 

I think that if I were in your shoes, a polite inquiry to the pack committee is where I would start. Nothing wrong with asking "help me understand why we have this large general fund surplus?" Where does it come from and what are we saving it for? Once you get that answered, you will be better able to decide whether a dues increase is warranted.

[Roadkill Patrol 23]

The balance shown was post-popcorn sales. Before popcorn, the balance was $7800. They only provide neckerchiefs to new scouts and crossing over to the next level. There are only 20 boys in the pack.

 

Pinewood derby is a self funded activity. During each derby, the pack gets donations of items to run a Derby Cafe. The money earned from the cafe pays for the cars for next year and all of the awards. A new track and finish line with software was donated 2 years ago. The pack gives free cars to the boys and if parents or siblings want to race in a separate class, they pay $5 per car.

 

As far as popcorn goes, the boy's sell first, then turn in the money when the product is delivered. I haven't seen where anything is paid up-front, but I will check into that for the next meeting.

 

The pack does have some books on hand that were purchased before this last treasurer's report, but they don't give them out free. Parents either buy a book from the pack or from the supply store.

 

I just don't see where the pack is using any of the money to benefit the boys, other than a little here and a little there. They are taking in more than they spent according to the chart that was attached to the report. It keeps climbing, there were more peaks than valleys on the chart. If parents don't go to the committee meeting, they wouldn't know any of this was going on.

[artjrk 11]

Several years ago after the outgoing treasurer left, our Pack found itself with a budget surplus of around $10,000. Apparently he liked to keep a good cushion. we had a Pack of about 50-60 boys. I don't know the exact details but we decided to whittle that amount down to a level equal to 1 years budget. That way if our fund raising totally flopped we would be OK. I think that level was closer to about $5,000.

 

I see you mentioned paying camperships for camp. That is good for some needy boys but what our Pack and Troop as well does is pay Summer camp fees for all adult leaders. As many know scout Leaders put a lot of their own money into the program (and we don't complain about it). But when we need to take a full week off as well, the assistance from the Pack does help. Especially those of us who are paid hourly. Another avantage to paying for the adults is it entices more adults to help (and get registered) thus getting more kids to come.

[Roadkill Patrol 23]

The campership fund has just under $300 in it. According to the details, it hasn't changed in 2 years. I forgot to mention there was a separate training fund, which will pay up to half of leader's approved training. I learned that this fund was created last year when the cubmaster decided to take Woodbadge and wanted the pack to pay for part of it. It hasn't been used much since. This was told to me by someone else, so I am not sure how it exactly works. Will have to find more about that also.

 

They seem to have funds set up for almost everything. The separate funds and the general fund combined total just over $12,000. That is why the general fund balance is baffling to me and why they don't do more to support the boys and help fund an outing or two.

[AKdenldr 33]

Wow, what a nice problem to have. Been there with a preschool I was involved with.

 

Perhaps people who are natural savers are running the committee. Perhaps the pay as you go plan is a historical hangover from when fund raising didn't go as well. My guess is that the CO does not know about these resources if pitching in a bit every year.

 

Do some friendly discovery, get involved in the committee and see if more funds can be spent supporting the program for the boys.

 

Afterall, most likely this surplus existed since long before your son joined the program.

[Basementdweller 608]

That is a lot of money for a cub pack of 20 to have. Superior money management or bleeding the boys.

 

With that said, I would ask the committee if there is long term plans for the cash. I would let the other parents know what is afoot. Ideally the Pack ledger should net zero for the year, the way I see it anyhow. If there is a surplus then your charging too much for the program.

[Frank17 10]

I can tell you from personal experience that our troop also has a large surplus. We set our dues to be roughly equivalent to our costs per scout per year. We raise dues through popcorn sales, where each scout is required to sell enough to cover their dues or pay the difference (about 80% cover their dues through sales only, with no out-of-pocket). We also encourage scouts to sell more than their dues amount to raise money for the Troop and offer prizes to do so. As a result, we usually bring in $3-4000 extra in fees per year. Some of this money goes to fund troop equipment, others for special speaker programs, and special events/trips. Over the years, it did start to build up so for the past 2 years we have given all our scouts a $100 credit for attending a BSA summer camp. We still have a healthy surplus (over $10K for a Troop of 60+ scouts) but as our dues have not been raised in over 5 years we feel that is OK to hold for the benefit of future scouts. It has also really come in handy to float late payments due for camps and events when pre-paymenmt is required.

 

I do understand your concern if dues are being actively raised while a large surplus exists. Although, a dues rate of $30 annually seems cheap to me.

[Twocubdad 665]

I think you're borrowing trouble. Get involved (beyond one committee meeting) before asking a lot of questions which may not be received very well. Take some time to get to know the individuals and how the pack operates before jumping in. There are many possible explainations for the fund balance, most of which include having a well-run, fiscally responsible pack committee.

 

It seems to me your boys are in Scouting at very little cost. Pack dues of $30 is cheap. Except for the first year, 90% of your dues goes directly to national. Unless your council is especially generous, I think you're off on your popcorn allocations. Usually, another 10% goes toward the prizes the Scouts earn, so probably half of the pack's net is going into the boys' individual accounts.

 

When I was chairman of the pack I received a call from the brand new treasurer that we had a problem. I assumed we were broke or something. No she said, we had $25,000 in the bank and was uncomfortable with that amount. The explaination was we were at the high point of our cash flow. We had collected dues from the boys but not yet paid recharter fees to the council. And we were in the middle of popcorn season and had thousands in gross receipts still in the checking account. You won't see that from atttending one committee meeting and seeing one month's treasurer report.

 

Ultimately, we came to the conclusion that a reasonable fund balance was one year's worth of expenses. We figured we were one lousey Popcorn Colonel from being broke. That much cushion would allow us to maintain our program until we could reorganize the popcorn sales or find another fundraiser.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Roadkill Patrol, here's the thing. And forgive me if I'm being a bit pedantic.

 

There's a difference between recurring (operational) funds and one-time (capital) funds. A good, financially prudent organization will never fund recurring operational costs (like dues, recharter, etc.) from one-time monies like an accumulated fund balance. That would be really bad stewardship. It's the sort of thing that leads to financial catastrophe down the road.

 

A lot of folks don't understand the difference between the two kinds of monies, and so mistakenly believe that a NFP is "hoarding" money or such. Nope. They're just doing their duty.

 

You don't mention how big your pack is, or what its annual budget is like. Generally speakin', not every family is very good about timely payment, and lots of activities require advance payments. Having a healthy general fund balance allows a unit to maintain a positive cash position when it has to make a bunch of deposits and activity fee payments and such before all the payments come in, or as TwoCubDad says it saves yeh from a weak fundraiser. $9K is slightly high for a cub pack, but then I don't know how big da pack is or what kinds of pack activities are being run. Yeh should definitely have a fund balance equal to at least half of the annual budget.

 

Lots of other explanations are possible, too, eh? Includin' donor restrictions on a past donation.

 

Regardless of the reason(s) or lack thereof, I'm not sure why you'd feel that it's OK for you to demand a subsidy for your family out of the pack's fund balance. That's what yeh seem to be asking for. They have money, so they should give it to me rather than making me pay for by son's BSA dues increase. Socialized wealth redistribution, eh? Da pack is a NFP entity, not a for-profit company that you own stock in. Yeh shouldn't expect that you are owed a piece of the fund balance (aka "dividend") no matter how big it is.

 

Yeh aren't being cheated, you even admit that you're gettin' what you pay for. So no point in gettin' riled up. If yeh want to have input on the budgeting and finances, volunteer for the committee, spend a year or two gettin' to know how things work, and then make some suggestions.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[JMHawkins 15]

I second Twocubdad's advice, get involved and help out the committee for a while - a few months or even a whole year - and give them the benefit of the doubt that they're being responsible and reasonable with their finances. After you've established your own credibility with the committee as someone interested in helping the pack and familiar with how it works, asking in a non-confrontational manner about the reserve shouldn't cause any trouble. Unless of course there's something wrong, but I think you can be patient in this case and observe for a while before reaching a conclusion. You'll get to know the people a little better and have a better idea of what their motivations are. If you go in right now with guns blazing, trying to stir up a bunch of other parents, you could easily come off as a random trouble-maker.

 

$30 dues are really low, and if the fees for the other activities seem reasonable as well, then you're not getting ripped off. That's why I think you can be patient - it doesn't sound like you've got a lot of your own money at risk here.

 

The big question that comes to my mind is, who's the Charter Organzation? Technically, they really have the money, not the pack. Perhaps it is money they donated to the pack and it's being reserved for something particular?

 

At any rate, I do suggest holding off on any confrontational approach - assume good will and good intentions until you have evidence of something else. A large reserve isn't evidence of chicanery, though you're right it's something worth understanding.

 

I wish our Pack had that problem...

[jhankins 10]

The first pack my son joined operated on a zero-balance system. Minus the money we used to purchase show and sell popcorn and to cover 1 event paid for the boys (Roughly $700), we were at -0- balance by the end of summer. We all agreed that we would operate the pack on whatever money came in through popcorn sales, and then we'd decide on activities we could afford. It worked really well for all of us, and the boys knew the money they helped raise was used on activities for them.

 

Contingencies aside, I can't see the benefit of units holding on to so much capital, it should be spent on the boys that helped earn it in that year.

[DeanRx 69]

Do you know if there are any outstanding debts not reported on the Tresurer's report? Our pack (about 60 boys), currently has about 9K in the bank. I (as the CM) was asked "why so much" at the last pack meeting and I replied because we still hadn't reimbursed the B&G chair roughly $1500, that awards alone usually run our unit about $250 a month, that there was $1250 budgeted for the upcoming pack campout that has not yet been spent and that about 2K of the money is tied up in individual scout accounts. I knew those numbers off the top of my head from my committee meeting of two weeks prior.

 

Awards @ $250/meeting x 9 pack meetings a year = $2250

Recharter of 60 boys + Boys life @ $30 / scout = $1800

B&G expenses of $1500

campout expenses of $1250

2K in individual accounts

 

That's right at $8800. So, that money has to carry us until next year's popcorn sales money comes in (around Dec / Jan and usually not until AFTER the unit has to cut a check for recharter).

 

Even though our unit has a little over 9K in the bank right now in May, if expenses for awards hold at historical levels, 95% of those funds are already "spent" before we replenish the coffers with dues and popcorn sales next fall.

 

So, if I were you, I'd first ask, "What is the ave monthly outlay for awards?" I assume, unlike unit activities that are 'pay-to-play' on top of dues, that ranks, belt loops, pins, and participation patches are covered by the pack? You'd be amazed how fast those things add up. In addition, does the pack pay for neckerchief, slide or books for bridging scouts at the end of the year?

 

Next I'd ask, "Are these earmarked items included in the gen fund total, or is the gen fund above and beyond each of the earmarked sub-groups?" Maybe it is or maybe it isn't.

 

Then offer to help with the treasurer and find out HOW they are spending money and HOW they are tracking it. I think its fine to ask the quesitons. Any unit that can't explain their expenditures is cause for concern. However, the idea that every year the bank account should return to zero in favor of "spending the money on the boys who earned it that year" is a very bad idea. Its a sure way to find your unit bankrupt in an off-fundraising year. Also, questions about money from folks who have not spent much time in the trenches running the unit are best served with a helpful, non-accusatory attitude. Just be friendly about it and they likely have a good explanation for where the money is either already spent, or is heading later in the year.

 

Our 9K is pretty much spent already, its just that the checks haven't been cut. Our only cushion is the $80 / year in dues we get from each boy (yes, $80, getting off on $30 is very cheap) in the fall.

 

$80 x 60 boys = $4800 to float us from late August until the popcorn check comes back from council in mid-Dec. That's roughly 1/3 our operating budget for the year to float over 4.5 months. I wouldn't want to cut it any closer than that, as I have personally with-held $900 in receipts over the Christmas holiday until the popcorn money arrived two years ago to keep the unit in the black. An extra $900 float on my personal credit card for 1.5 months over the holiday season is a LOT to ask from anyone, even if they are a dedicated unit leader. And no, I didn't charge the unit interest.

 

Bottom line - look at fiscal responsibility as a very good thing for the unit. As long as the MAJORITY of the funds are being spent on program and none of the adult leaders are getting PAID, then its really not a big deal and in fact is probably a well ran unit.

[Scoutfish 16]

While I canot break our budget down into micro numbers or exact cost per scout per activity..I do know it costs us around $125 a year per scoutfor things like advancement abs awards, pins, beltloops etc.

 

At the end of the year, our pack will buy neckers and books for all cubs who are active and advance to the next rank. That's around $25 per scout..give or take.

 

We go camping as a pack twice a year at a church retreat campground that does not belong to our CO. That' costs too.

 

We have a pack trailer that holds all our camping kitchen stuff ( gas bottles, tables, chairs, dining fly , etc..) Well, we have inspection fees and registration too.

 

Our pack pays for registered leader insurance and recharter too.

 

We buys books, videos and other materials for training . We have to pay for paper, ink, toner, staples paper clipcs, etc... for memos, flyers and parent notices.

 

We have to pay a ( I think) quarterly fee for pack master ( any body else have constant issues with pm?) , we have the e-mail tree srevice to pay for too.

 

On it's own, each one seems minor, but at the end of the season add it and look at all the kids who got awards or such.

 

As a pack, we also have a policy that no child will do without due to economic reasons. No, we don't just grab up every kid in the neighborhood and treat them for free, but we do help out a few who actually inquire about it.

 

 

Point being: My pack could tear through that $9,000.00 pretty fast by the end of the year .

[ScoutNut 147]

For those that missed it Roadkill's Pack has TWENTY (20) Scouts. Not 60, or almost 100, but a rather small Pack of 20.

 

The $9,000 was in the GENERAL fund ONLY. That amount did NOT include Scout accounts, or any of the other "special" accounts for equipment, training, uniforms, camperships, etc. There is over $12,000 in the ENTIRE Pack account - for 20 Scouts.

 

Out of the $9,000 General fund, the Pack pays for advancements, Boys Life, new neckers, crafts, and some food for Pack activities.

 

The Pack might have to pre-pay for some activities, but participants are always charged a fee to attend. I am assuming the aim is to break even.

 

Roadkill states that there is NO allocation shown for any advance saving for any kind of future/upcoming activity.

 

Based on what Roadkill states the Pack pays for, and the costs shown on the National web site, a rounded up estimate for 20 Scouts is around $5,000 per year. Roadkill also states that the amount in the General fund keeps INCREASING each year. So what ever money the Pack uses out of it is being replaced, and then some.

 

The Pack is now RAISING dues because the "cost to charter went up".

 

While the National registration cost did go up $5 to $15 per year, Roadkill stated that their Charter Organization, NOT the Pack, pays the recharter costs each year, and sometimes even gives the Pack additional monies. The Pack pays for Boys Life but that cost has not increased and is still $12 per year.

 

All of the above would make me, as a paying member of the Pack, very curious as to why EXACTLY dues were being raised, and where/how the Pack's money was being spent. BSA states that Pack families should be kept informed of the Pack's budget and financial information.

 

If I was you Roadkill, I would have asked some questions, then and there, at the Committee meeting. Since you did not, I would invite the Treasurer out for a coffee, and a talk, to explain the Pack's budgeting, and their need for a dues increase. I would also try to convince the CC. and Treasurer, that these things should be communicated openly, and fully, to all of the Pack families.

 

If you want to see the Pack pay for more for the Scouts, it is up to you to advocate for it. Come up with a plan for an activity, and, at the next Committee meeting, offer to run it if the Pack pays for it.