length of Webelos program

[rrelaljrksw]

I have a question about the length of the Webelos program and 2 different situations.

1. I have some boys that are getting their AOL in Dec. They or their parents more than likely have chosen not to cross over into Boy Scouts right away. Their parents have said they are going to stay in cubs until at least May and might like to do some pack activities over the summer and then join boy scouts in the fall. What are the rules about how long a boy can stay in cub scouts after earning the arrow of light?

2. We have another boy who will not earn AOL. This is his 2nd year and he has earned no activity pins. He has a very busy life outside of scouting and only completes the den portion when he's there. He never follows up and finishes anything at home. We informed his parents that he is welcome to attend when he can and have made them aware of why their son is not advancing like the rest of his den. They are okay with that. He will most likely not go into Boy Scouts, but would like to stay in cubs as long as possible and go to Webelos camp this summer. How long can a boy without the AOL stay in Webelos?

 

When do we have to nicely tell both groups of boys they can't come anymore? Any suggestions how to do this when that day comes? I'd like to have some official rules to refer to and not just opinions if possible. I'd like to have something official to back up the pack's decision about letting them remain in Cubs as long as they are allowed to.

[Twocubdad]

From the Cub Scout FAQ on scouting.org:

 

How old (or young) can a boy be to join Cub Scouting?

Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting, but they may be eligible to join the Boy Scouting or Venturing program.

 

This doesn't directly answer the question, when do you get kicked out? but I would read this to say that if you are 11 and completed the 5th grade you're done. Same answer for both situations.

 

A more practical question is what's happening with the den at that point? By practice, I think most Webelos II dens dissolve after crossover which is usually in late winter/early spring. If the den is still active through the spring -- let's say you have a combined Webelos I & II den -- and the boys want to hang on until school's out, I suppose they could.

 

But this is weird. Why do these kids WANT to do this? It sounds to me like none of them really want to go into Boy Scouts. You need to talk more with the Scouts and parents and perhaps get the troop leaders involved. What sort of Webelos-to-Boy Scouts transition program is the pack and troop conducting?

 

Personally, once we have finished the program and the bulk of the boys have crossed over, I'd say it's time to kick the rest out of the nest.

[LongHaul]

A boy may remain in Cub Scouts for 6 months after turning 11 years old OR completing the 5th grade, which ever is later. Per Cub Scout Leaders Guide and Webelos Leader Guide.

[rrelaljrksw]

The parents of the 2 getting AOL ARE the den leaders so they have planned meetings to last until May. The reason they gave is because the boys want to earn more pins. They already have over half of them. They have visited with a scout troop and the DL parents were unimpressed (it was apparently a very chaotic meeting) Before the visit the parents were not sure they wanted to go into scouts and the meeting did not convince them that their boys should advance into scouts. One also has a younger brother in cubs, so its more convenient to keep them together. The COR and I have tried to explain that they need time to bond with the scouts before summer camping to no avail. We are a 2 year old pack, so this is our first Webelos to Boy Scouts transition. I'm think its the parents more than the boys and we may have to deal with it and let them crossover when they like. I will however let the other parents of boys in this den know that they can cross over earlier if they have their AOL or are 11. I'm going to work with the first year Webelos DLs to make sure they have more contact with the Boy Scouts so they will be excited to cross over.

 

Longhaul posted "A boy may remain in Cub Scouts for 6 months after turning 11 years old OR completing the 5th grade, which ever is later. Per Cub Scout Leaders Guide and Webelos Leader Guide"

 

Does that mean 6 months after 11 (11 1/2) or 6 months after 5th grade (Sept. or Nov.)? Or does it mean 11 1/2 or when school lets out May/June. I have parents who are trying to interpret that as 6 months after 5th grade.

[John-in-KC]

Anecdote: EagleSon was 11 years, 8 months, 20 odd days when he bridged from Pack to Troop in 2001. His mother and I had held him back at K deliberately, for growth and socialization. Our local Council had rechartered him at 11 years, 5 months. He was with his academic year group in moving up to the Troop.

 

I'd check with your local Council registrar and DE. Something tells me there's a fair bit of case by case here.

 

[ScoutNut]

From the Cub Scout Leader Book -

 

"Although a Webelos Scout reaching age 11 or completing fifth grade and at least 10 years old is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the pack for six months after his 11th birthday or until he completes fifth grade, whichever is later."

 

This is pretty clear cut, and does not allow for any interpretation. By stating "WHICHEVER IS LATER", BSA allows for as much latitude as possible. However, the bottom line is, the end of Cub Scouting is EITHER 11.5 years old, OR the end of 5th grade.

 

The ONLY exception would be for a Scout with disabilities.

[Twocubdad]

Classic example of "in charge" Cub Scout leaders -- who tend to be wrapped pretty tightly around the axel to begin with -- show up for a typically chaotic Scout-run troop meeting and freak out.

 

The problem here is with the parents and the cause is the lack of a solid Webelos-to-Scout transition program. The dirty little secret is that the transition targets the parents more so than the boy. NEVER let Webelos parents just show up for troop meeting without the proper preparation!

 

There is an official phamplet and maybe a DVD out there on how to run a W2BS program (sorry, I can't find it on Scouting.com) but here's how we do it:

 

First, we put a priority on the Webelos dens having Den Chief. This create a personal relationship between the Webelos and at least on familiar face in the troop.

 

2. Around the first of October, the den chief, another Scout or two and one ASM vist each Webelos II den and invites them to attend the troop campout in November. The Scouts conduct the den meeting program which is to go over the gear the Webelos will need on the campout and tell them what to expect. The ASM is there to answer any parent questions.

 

3. The main part of the program for the campout with the Webelos is a round-robin with each patrol demonstating some Scout skill. The patrols spend several weeks preparing their demonstration and try to make it above and beyond what the Webelos have seen before. If it's first aid they haul out all the SFX stuff and make it as gory as possible -- arterial bleeds, amputations, sucking chest wounds, etc. For cooking they bake pizzas in a box oven, roast a chicken on a spit or -- the current favorite -- fried Oreos. The webelos parents are encouraged to watch -- but not interrupt -- the demonstrations. In the afternoon, the Scouts take the Webelos on a no-adults tour of the camp (which is our summer camp). The parents stay in the campsite for a detailed orientation session with the troop leaders.

 

4. In January we invite the Webelos to a troop meeting during which we try to have an activity which will be new to the Webelos, like flint and steel fire building. The troop committee takes the parents next door to the church for more parent orientation.

 

5. The troop turns out for the crossover pack meeting in February and welcomes the new Scout on the other side of the bridge.

 

6. March through summer camp the troop guides have a separate program for the new Scout patrols getting them started on advancement; camping skills and getting ready for summer camp.

 

What's going on behind the scenes is we're doing all we can to make the Boy Scouts look good. They are practiced and know what they're doing. The whole troop tries to put our best foot forward FOR THE PARENTS to see how well a Scout-led program can run. We want to parents to come away impressed with our Scouts and to want their son to be part of the program. If they come away thinking this was the most confused cluster-flub they've every witnessed, you get the reaction rrelaljrksw is getting.

 

The kids aren't a problem. We had them hooked with the blood and guts first aid demonstration.

[Basementdweller]

You cannot register a boy who is 11 as a cub scout.

 

a cub/scout master combo who did not want a weeb 2 in boy scouts yet, because in his opinion he was too immature and would be a disruptive influence. So during the recharter he tried to register him as his actual age and scout net kicked it out told us he was too old. So the c/sm lied about the young mans age on the recharter to keep him in cubs a year more.

[John-in-KC]

All I will say guys, is my Council re-registered an 11 year old who went beyond 11/6 in his Pack before moving up. That's ground truth. He wasn't flagged by the Council database (at that point, ScoutNet may or may not have been full blown).

 

 

[Basementdweller]

twocubs......I gotta tell you that is pretty funny.

 

the large and in charge weeb den leader wigging out. Put a big smile on my face.

 

I know of a couple of female den leaders definite type A that are gonna have a real problem with boy lead. Thankfully the boys are going to be involved with one of the best SM in our District. I am sure he has dealt with this before.

[ScoutNut]

As long as the Scout has not yet finished 5th grade, Scoutnet will allow him to be registered as a Cub Scout, even if he is over 11.

 

Many 5th graders (and even some 4th graders who have been held back) turn 11 before their council's recharter date.

 

 

[eghiglie]

The program length is hard to categorize. It doesn't allow for the kid who has been outdoors all his life to move on early, nor does it allow for the kid who has been babied by his parents to stay for another year.

 

When based on a grade in school it has problems, the kids don't always fit into the ranges asserted. Keeping kids together at the same academic level makes sense, but the AoL award complicates things (my opinion).

 

Not only are there the 11 yo 4th grader, there is also the 9 yo 5th grader. Both happen on a regular basis where I live. The council I am with said that cubbies are aged out at 12 yo or when 5th grade is over.

 

Where I live only 35% of the webelos cross over to a Troop. Of those that do, 50% quit the troop within 8 months.

 

[Basementdweller]

Eghigle.....you mistake experience/academics with maturity. I would not expect 12-14 to enjoy hanging with a 9 year old.

 

My son has a length outdoor resume for a city kid. at 9 he has more than 100 miles of backpacking and probably over 100 nights in tent camping from wilderness to cuboree's.

He is too immature for Boy Scouts yet, I would not burden a SM or PL with his childish immature ways. it just isn't fair to everyone else in the Patrol.

[Scouting Mom]

How do you all figure you cannot register a boy who is 11 as a Cub?

 

We recently had a boy register with us whose Dad filled out the application saying he was 11 (almost 12)and in the 4th grade. ScoutNet didn't kick it out. As it turns out Dad mixed up his sons' birth years and this particular boy was only 8, but ScoutNet STILL has him listed as being 11.

 

Our pack also had a boy who was held back in Kindergarten and was 11 and in 4th grade when he last recharted with us. He crossed over just before his 12th birthday in his 5th grade year.

 

As has been said, a boy can be a Cub until he is 11y6m or 5th gr +6mo, whichever is later. And sorry, rrelaljrksw, but your parents CAN interpret it exactly as written and keep the kids in Cubs until the Fall after 5th grade. Just make sure that all the parents understand that just because the DLs want to keep their kids back, doesn't mean they have to hold their kids back.

 

Sounds like the real problem is that the local Troop is not to their liking. To this problem I would make 2 suggestions. 1st, make sure the parents understand that Troops are boy-lead. Was the meeting they went too controlled chaos or just chaos? Despite appearances, they may actually have been getting things done. As Webelos leaders, they are supposed to be getting the boys and their parents used to the boy-lead idea, but they may have missed that lesson themselves. I'm new to Boy Scouts, since my oldest crossed over less than a year ago, but I've seen truly boy lead troops and I've seen the opposite (sometimes called Webelos 3) and trust me when I say the boy lead ones are healthier troops with boys who learn more and learn about taking responsibility. The "Webelos3" troop I know of had so much in-fighting among the adults that the only thing the boys learned was how to pick on each other and intimidate the new kids. (They were emulating the adults).

 

My second suggestion is to go "troop shopping." If the one troop really is unsuitable, look around. There are bound to be other troops nearby. A few years ago, our Webelos went to visit the troop they thought was their only option (see earlier comment about "Webelos3" troop). All 5 boys opted to not crossover and to quit Scouts altogether. Our CC, a die-hard Scout geek, encouraged them to look a little further down the road. The Webelos took his advice and every one of them crossed over afterall. In fact, 4 years later, 4 of the 5 boys are still in Boy Scouts.

[nolesrule]

"As has been said, a boy can be a Cub until he is 11y6m or 5th gr +6mo, whichever is later."

 

No, what has been said is 11y6mo or end of 5th grade, whichever is later.