Spin Off: Liability Question

[SctDad]

BasementDweller's Question

 

A question to the group. What is your Personal liability holding a position your not trained for ans something happens? Are you covered by BSA's insurance?

 

 

I woud like to explore this a little more, but what kind of position are you refering to?

 

Just a question basing it on the previous thread

[Beavah]

Yah, for some reason this spin-off didn't have a link back to da original thread, so I couldn't find it to figure out what generated da question.

 

Honestly, IMO da best answer if we're talkin' about BSA stuff is "none." Internal BSA trainin' doesn't really matter a lick in terms of anybody's personal liability. If you're not capable and the CO appointed you to the position, that's the CO's liability as supervisor. Yah, yah, I can dream up scenarios where maybe someone misrepresents their trainin' and all that, but that's just playin' litigation games.

 

If you're a registered leader, BSA insurance coverage applies as primary coverage for you on any scout or scout-related event. Trained or not, stupid or not, whatever. If you're not a registered adult with the BSA but are a parent volunteer helpin' out on an event, BSA insurance coverage is goin' to apply to you as well, but as excess coverage over any personal insurance policies you have.

 

The BSA works hard to protect its volunteers and COs. So pretty much there's a basic rule, eh? Anytime anybody tells you that you need to worry about personal liability in Scouting, they're wrong. And on top of it all, odds are you're covered by volunteer immunity anyways.

 

So relax, and worry about how to get youth leaders to do their job, or how to get your den to pay attention at the next meeting or whatnot. That's where yeh should be spending your scouting time and energy. If you're worried about not bein' trained, best not to be playin' untrained amateur attorneys frettin' about "liability."

 

Beavah

 

[Basementdweller]

Interesting,

 

I was told by my DE that if I did not attend NCS and acted as a Program or Camp Director that I would be personally Liable for any legal problems from the event.

 

Yet another lying or uneducated scout professional. I have experienced way too many Professionals and Volunteers who have for what ever reason misguided and provided incorrect information to me over the last 5 years. I grow tired of it.

 

It is good to know that Liability isn't an issue. Thx Beavah I need to buy you a beverage of your choice some day.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

So, Basement Dweller...

"I was told by my DE that if I did not attend NCS and acted as a Program or Camp Director that I would be personally Liable for any legal problems from the event."

 

What was the DE's response when you told him to go find another Program or Camp Director?

 

NC

[shortridge]

I'm not a liability expert nor an attorney, but I do think that term gets thrown around way too much.

 

IMHO, training would definitely matter in certain cases. For example, if you're not trained as a rangemaster and you run a shooting sports event and something happens, I'd wager BSA wouldn't exactly leap to your defense. Ditto if you're not trained in Safe Swim Defense and something happens during a swim that you're running. Some training is mandatory to conduct certain programs, and without that training, you shouldn't be doing it. The same thing applies if you're running a camp under the auspices of National Standards and you're not properly trained.

[Basementdweller]

Long story short, I had already planned my summer vacations and what not. The District needed a day camp program director so I said I would help out, this was before I knew it was gonna be Two weeks off work unpaid. One for training and one for the camp.

 

If I had the choice I would have put the training off a year so I could schedule my vacation to go.

 

Our District is terrible with lack of activities. I have complained and organized a few, that is how I got asked to do the day camp. Had I not volunteered to do the day camp, there probably would not have been one.

 

If someone wants to sue me over an accident at a scout event they will be sorely disappointed with what they get. 15 year old truck 10 year old motorcycle and 60 year old 1000 square foot house. They can have it.

 

We wonder why scouting is losing membership, It is crap like this that makes people leave.

[scoutldr]

I believe that NCS qualified leaders are required for Camp accreditation. I think it has more to do with that than legal liability.

 

My financial advisor told me to get a personal liability umbrella policy. I got it through State Farm for a couple hundred dollars a year.

 

My answer would have been, "sorry...I can't afford two weeks off from work, so i guess I can't help". End of discussion.

[Twocubdad]

I don't think it's that simple a question. Something happens and you get sued, whether or not you were trained and/or qualified to run the event will definitely be part of the case, either in your favor or against.

 

Over the years, I have asked a number of folks how BSA handles lawsuits. Most professional I've spoken to really can't (or won't) say. The most honest answer I got was from a regional exec. Because lawsuits always name you, BSA, and anyone standing close by, BSA WILL send in it's lawyers to defend you. The real question is who are those lawyers representing, you or BSA. Generally, defendants sink or swim together. But I asked the guy what happend if the BSA's and the volunteer's interests conflicted, are the lawyers there to represent the interest of the volunteer of BSA? At that point the fellow just smiled and shook his head slowly.

 

Clearly, BSA has an interest in protecting it's volunteers. But if I totally goes off the reservation, is BSA going to spend thousands or millions to cover my screw up? Hmmmmmm.

 

Personally, if I were ever sued is such a situation, I would have my own lawyer who would at minimum oversee the suit to make sure I was being protected. That's why insurance companies sell liability riders.

 

[Basementdweller]

That is all well and good DLR. But if no one steps up, Then what.

 

Had I not complained, I probably would have told him to stuff it.

 

Not in my nature, We went from no day camp the last 5 years to one last summer with 100 boys, we even got accredited for the first time in 11 years.

 

If everyone keeps throwing their hands in the air, nothing gets better. It is my intent to keep running the program for the foreseeable future.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Sounds to me like you need a friendly cup of coffee with your District Chairman about how the District plans major activities and recruits key staff.

 

There seem to be bigger problems in this District.

 

Beavah: In the Council I serve, if the Camp Visitation team finds something out of whack, they have the authority to mandate immediate change, or even to shut down the camp on the spot. You've been on more than one visitation team. Is that true across most councils? Would you talk about consequences of a bad visit, to include what doesn't happen for the kids??

[Eamonn]

When people start going on about "The Liability Question".

My first question is "How many Scouter's have been sued for things that have had to do with their Scouting activities?"

I have been around for a while, been a lot of places, talked with a lot of Scouter's and have only ever met one. That case was later dropped.

I do believe that proper training in certain areas does help prevent a lot of law suits.

I have never really been sure if "I didn't know!" is better than "I forgot!"

 

I was driving around the area where I live a few weeks back and it seemed that just about every church in our area had a sign up inviting kids to come and attend their Vacation Bible School.

While I'll admit I have never been a part or ever been involved in a Vacation Bible School. I did at the time think to myself how very much these are to the Cub Scout Day Camps that we offer. My first thought was how much cheaper they are! Most of what is offered is free! We charge $45.00.

My second thought was about all the stuff we go through to offer a Day Camp.

Yes I know all about the shooting sports, but many of the other Standards that are required really do seem a little over the top.

Many years back I was on NCS Staff for Cub Scout Day Camp. That was when there was one course for Camp Director and one for Program Director.

Way too much time was spent on the budget.

Many of the people there were terrified that "The Inspectors" would swoop down and close the camp.

No one seemed to give any thought as to what to do with a couple of hundred kids when most of the parents would be at work?

Can things happen to kids at Day Camp?

Of course it can happen.

We moved the location of the District Day Camp because the park we held it in was to close to a big river.

I'm all for us having the trained people we need to get the job done.

Having them at camp when I was the Camp Director made me feel better.

Made me feel better because I want to keep our kids safe, not because I was worried about the liability question.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

If I ever get sued, I will be sure to have a lawyer there of MY choosing to represent ME and my interests. The BSA can do what they want.

[John-in-KC]

Eamonn,

 

Ironic point: I remember the weeping and gnashing of teeth there was the first time our parish liability carrier presented the Pastor and President with a youth protection training module.

 

The carrier made it simple and sweet: Adults with direct contact of kids at Parish events had to take the training as a condition of coverage on the policy. Should something untoward happen, and the direct contact adult wasn't trained, the carrier could repudiate coverage.

 

Pastor and President got the message, clear as day.

 

What was worse? BSA YP, such as it was 5 years ago, was far better than what this company sent us.

 

Thus far the war story... We will now sing Junior Cubman