Tiger Scout eligilibilty?

[PackCommittteeChair 10]

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum and I apologize for the long post. We have a problem in our pack and we need all the advice that we can get on this issue.

 

At our Recruiting Night we turned away a parent who wanted to sign her son up as a Tiger Scout. Her son was in kindergarten and 6 years old. BSA National Policy states that a Tiger Cub is in First Grade or 7 years old. Her son was in the public school kindergarten last year and then this year she put her son in kindergarten in Catholic School. We kindly told the parent that we look forward to recruiting her and her son in the Spring. However this is not what she wanted to hear.

 

Our Cubmaster, upon hearing the parents intentions of joining the Tiger Cub den anyhow, kindly phoned the parent and request that she wait another year. Still ignoring our request, the parent goes out and purchases her son the complete Tiger Scout uniform. And they attend the first Tiger den meeting (held at a school). At this point, the Cubmaster appeals to our District Executive and the Pack Committee for assistance. I call our Council office and they in turn call the National office to see if an exception could be made to the eligibility policy because of the extenuating circumstance that the boy was repeating kindergarten. The last thing that I want to do is hurt a childs feelings. I am told that no exceptions can be made. I say thank you very much. The Cubmaster, with the Committees approval, writes the parent a registered letter again requesting that her son wait. The parent creates havoc and gets the Tiger Leaders essentially on her side (apparently the leaders like the parent and claim she is an asset to their den). A few emails get sent and the Cubmaster resigns and says that he will not be subject to such abuse when he is merely trying to enforce the rules of BSA.

 

As the Committee Chair, I find a replacement Cubmaster (thank God) and fill in our Chartered Organization Representative on the situation. But we still have the problem of the insistent parent and ineligible boy. The new Cubmaster appeals to Council for help and he also meets the parent at the door of the den meeting and requests that she not attend the meetings (incidentally, the new Cubmaster is the same guy at Recruiting Night that would not give the parent the application to join). The parent proceeds to call the new Cubmaster a liar. Council finally decides to confront and call the parent. When speaking with the parent, Council finds the parent to be delightful and only trying to be a good mother. Council then calls National again and says that an exception to the eligibility requirements can now be made. However they would abide by the final decision from the Committee. I get a vote from the Committee and the vote is no, the boy and his parent cannot continue as registered Tigers. The decision is based upon the boy will eventually be a 10 year old 4th grader in the Boy Scout troop and this will not be in his best interest. Also the boy wears the Tiger uniform in Kindergarten and we turned away several Kindergarteners at Recruiting Night. Plus it is a known fact in our community that this parent has done this sort of thing in other community organizations, such as for baseball and church childrens choir. Sometimes the family gets away with it and other times they dont. The Committee wonders if this rule is allowed to be broken, what will the next issue be with this parent and the national policy? Frankly the Committee is exhausted dealing with this and is enthusiastic to pursue planning events for our Packs 50th Anniversary celebration this year.

 

Now Council has decided to call an arbitration meeting next week between the parents and unbiased, volunteer Council representatives and the Pack leadership to hopefully resolve this situation. Why Council did not decide to go with the Committees decision, I dont know! Our current Cubmaster has said that he will resign if the boy is allowed to become a registered Tiger Scout.

 

I am disappointed in the family that kept ignoring the BSA National Policy and I am disappointed in our Council for flip flopping on the BSA National Policy. We believe that rules are rules and they are made for a good reason. Had we been told up front when I asked Council the first time before sending the letter to the parents that an exception could be made, we would still have our amazing and awesome first Cubmaster!

 

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on this issue?

 

[EagleInKY 14]

This is really troubling. If I'm understanding everything correctly, and you're telling us the unbiased truth, then let me make these observations. What we have here is:

 

- a well-functioning pack with an active committee, Committee chairman and leaders who appear to know and follow BSA rules.

- a pack with bench strength in its leaders such that a replacement Cubmaster is found within a short period of time.

- a pack with 50 year history!

- a Committee Chair who takes their their job seriously and follows the proper escalation method to resolve a problem.

- a council that tries to follow policy.

 

And yet, an overzealous parent with no respect for the rules is trying to make the system work for her and is driving off good leaders.

 

All I can say is I wish you the best of luck. I encourage you to stick by your values and your instincts. If you all feel that letting them in is the wrong thing to do, then you should stick to it. One question - how does your CO feel about the issue? I would think they would have final say.

[PackCommittteeChair 10]

Our Chartered Organization Representative told me yesterday that they were in favor of the Pack following the rules. The parent had approached them as well. They feel that it will be better if they wait until the boy can go through scouting with his classmates and friends. They are awaiting the results of our arbitration meeting next week.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Several words come to mind here: Psychopath, stalker, restraining order...

 

Even before I got down to all the terrible details of the destruction this woman has wrought upon your pack, it occurred to me that something is backwards here: This is a mother who intentionally held her child back in school by having him repeat kindergarten -- a rare decision that I will assume is in the best interests of this particular child. Some children are not ready for kindergarten even when the calendar says so, especially if their birthday is right before the cutoff date. But then, having held her child back in SCHOOL, she becomes concerned with not having him also held back in CUB SCOUTS? And not just concerned, obsessed, to the point where she has turned the pack upside down, made a lot of peoples' lives miserable, and apparently helped several people at council ruin their own future credibility. It doesn't make any sense. Even if she "wins," what has she gained for her son?

 

Maybe we are all destined to know one parent who is willing and able to destroy the entire world around them due to a perceived slight to their child, either real or imagined. I have known one, fortunately she was not connected with a Scouting unit, but she did a large amount of damage to the local school system and came very close to destroying another worthy local organization that I was involved in. Not counting actual criminals, this type of person is the scariest on Earth.

[cor232 10]

What I would do as COR for my pack, and what yours should do, is simply refuse to take the child no matter what the council says. Tell them that if they choose to disregard BSA policy then they can send him to any other pack they would like. As for my pack we don't want him. By excepting him you would not only violating BSA policy but you would be teaching the child that it is OK to break the rules if you make enough trouble. She has already caused the loss of one Cubmaster and will cause the loss of another if his son is allowed to join. Her behavior has been and would undoubtedly continue to be disruptive and destructive to the pack. In the words of Spock in "The Wrath of Khan", "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

[ScoutNut 147]

A few questions - If no registration form or fee was accepted by your Pack how can this child be a member? Was the Tiger Leader given a listing of REGISTERED Tiger Scouts? To the council folks here - will the scoutnet program even accept a registration of a 6 yr old in kindergarten?

 

Final question - Does your CO, you, as CC, your past and present Cubmaster, and your Tiger Leader all REALLY want to face the possibility of losing EVERYTHING they have? I mean all personal assets, including house, car and bank accounts? That is a very real possibility if you continue to let this child attend Den meetings and Pack functions WITHOUT BEING REGISTERED. This is one obsessive parent whose child is NOT covered under BSA insurance.

 

This whole question should never have occured. This mother should have simply been told - sorry it can't be done this year. Tigers are 7 years old or in 1st grade. This boy is neither so registration CAN NOT be accepted, come back next year. I don't care how nice the lady is. I know a very nice couple who have a 1 year old son, that doesn't mean I would sign the boy up as a Tiger!

 

I also do not understand why your council is getting involved in this. Your Council CAN NOT force your Pack to accept this boy as a member! They have no say so in it at all, other than to tell you they can't accept registration from a 6 year old kindergartener. Your Charter Organization OWNS your Pack and with ownership comes the right to pick and choose their membership. If your Charter Organization Rep and the head of your Charter Organization both say NO the answer stays NO. Your council has no basis for calling any kind of arbitration meeting.

 

I think the only meeting that needs to be called is a training meeting for both Council and Unit.

 

[PackCommittteeChair 10]

Dear ScoutNut,

 

No registration form or fee was accepted and this child is not a member. However the Tiger Leaders do not wish to deal with this issue directly and have told us that they will leave the decision to Pack leadership and Council to deal with.

 

We live in a small town and the Tiger Leaders volunteered last Spring. I believe this boy may have been associated with the Tiger Leaders and/or future Tigers through his participation on a baseball team. Last Spring the Tiger leader may not have been aware of the intentions of the parent to hold him back and switch schools. The Tiger leaders are perferring to stay neutral on this issue and just go about being leaders of their den. I know that the new Cubmaster has been advocating training for the new Tiger Leaders and they are planning to attend training next week on November 10th.

 

I appreciate everyone's input and opinions.

 

 

[dsteele 20]

Ahh . . . I think I can see the mother's side now. I was wondering how all this came about and based on the quote from PackCommittee Chair, I have a theory of what's going on here:

 

"We live in a small town and the Tiger Leaders volunteered last Spring. I believe this boy may have been associated with the Tiger Leaders and/or future Tigers through his participation on a baseball team. Last Spring the Tiger leader may not have been aware of the intentions of the parent to hold him back and switch schools."

 

Specifically, "Last Spring the Tiger leader may not have been aware of the intentions of the parent to hold him back and switch schools."

 

My theory:

 

This one is no one's fault.

 

Many councils, recruit in the spring. I know we do it in our district. A kindergartner is considered, by those councils, to be in first grade as soon as he finishes kindergarten.

 

Many councils recruit Tiger Cubs in the Kindergarten in the late spring and register them in June.

 

So . . . if the parent didn't mention (or hadn't decided yet) to register the boy as a Tiger Cub, it could have been done. This would assume that the boy is a first grader effective June 1.

 

Now the problem comes when the boy is held back from first grade (a truly rare occurrence) and is still a kindergartner in the fall.

 

The dilema is this . . . who has to tell the kid he has to wait a year? He was welcomed with open arms in the spring. If he's showing up on the pack's roster from the council, he is registered. Technically, since he's still a kindergartner and only 6 years old, there's no way he qualifies based on the letter of the law.

 

This is a conundrum. I'm glad I don't have to make the decision, and I feel badly for both sides because I can see both sides of the issue.

 

Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance. Let your local council decide and I'll hope for the best for the boy.

 

Unc.

[PackCommittteeChair 10]

Our Pack and District did do a Spring Recruitment last May. However this family did not sign up then. The first time that this family tried signing up was this fall at Recruiting Night and they shared with the recruiter that their son was in kindergarten (for a second year) and 6 years of age.

 

Is is a tough one! I'll keep everyone posted on the resolution.

[dsteele 20]

PackCommitteeChair:

 

I hope I'm wrong about my hypothesis. I'd be glad to be wrong in that case.

 

I just re-read your post about how the boy may have been involved with the Tiger Leaders as part of a baseball last spring and still think the issue may be closely related.

 

If he was involved in the spring as a result of a little league baseball team and the Tiger Leaders were coaches . . . and the kid said he wanted to be a Tiger Cub, I can see the coach saying, "you can join next year."

 

This would lead the boy and the parent to believe (correctly in that case) that the kid could be in Tiger Cubs.

 

However, if the comment was made and Mom didn't mention holding him back . . . the coaches would have been incorrect, although not of any fault of their own.

 

I don't blame your tiger leaders for wanting to stay out of it. At best they were mis-lead.

 

Unc.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I realize this thread was starting to fade down the list, but I did want to comment on one thing, and it was the issue that Uncleguinea focused on: The problem of disappointing a youth (and his parents) because he/they had the expectation of being able to join, and now he cannot. Among other things, Uncleguinea said:

 

"The dilema is this . . . who has to tell the kid he has to wait a year?"

 

That may be the real problem in this particular case. The mother told her son he could join, or confirmed the statements of others than he could join, and now she does not want to disappoint her son by telling him otherwise. Unfortunately, that is what she has to do. Instead she is in the process of setting fire to the pack in other to avoid having to carry out this responsibility. At least, that is how I view it.

 

I recently witnessed a very similar situation in my son's troop. One of our (relatively new) ASM's, the parent of one of the boys in the troop, arranged for his grandson to visit a troop meeting and join the troop. (Yes, this man has a son and a grandson within a few years of age of each other, though not few enough as it turned out.) Evidently the boy's grandparents and parents told him he was joining the troop. The ASM had first spoken to the SM about it, and the subject of the boy's age and grade in school was discussed, but apparently Grandpa was either mistaken or the information was misunderstood. So here is the boy at the troop meeting, and the SM has his required conference as stated in the joining requirements, and the SM asks me to sit in. To make a long story short, it turns out the boy is 9 years old and in the fourth grade -- perfect age and grade for a first-year Webelos, not a Boy Scout. When this becomes clear the SM starts panicking a little and starts saying things like, well, you should be registered in the Cub Scout pack, but maybe you can come to troop meetings and go on camping trips. At this point I give the SM a look, and say, "we need to talk." Obviously I did not want say anything more than that in front of the boy, who at this point is looking increasingly disappointed. (At this point whichever adult had brought him to the meeting, I think his grandmother, was gone and had not returned.) When the SM and I were alone, he knew what I was going to say, and had no choice but to agree, though he was somewhat embarrassed and a bit defensive about the fact that he had dug a somewhat deeper hole than already existed when the conference started. But he got over it -- the important thing is that when the grandmother returned she was told the boy needs to be enrolled in the Cub Scout pack and that he can join the troop when he meets the requirements. Fortunately, in this case all the adults involved are acting like adults.

[Torveaux 10]

It can be a difficult decision to modify your child's educational path.

 

A few years ago we were faced with the opposite problem. Our oldest boy's birthday is after the school cutoff, but he is exceptionally bright and was skipped over 1st grade. We could have said no, and kept him in his earlier grade. This would have been bad for his academic development (and likely that of his classmates as well). As I did not have a Cub Scouting background, I was not aware at the time that it went by grade and not age.

 

At the first meeting, the Pack simply explained that he would be a Wolf. On the negative side, by no fault of his own, my son could never get his Tiger badge or experience those things. It made so much more sense to keep him with the classmates that he would have for the next 5+ years than to do otherwise.

 

Someone that this lady respects (if there is such a person)needs to explain to her how out of sync things would be. My son is now a Bear (I am the Den Leader) and so many of the Achievements coincide nicely with the school curriculum.

 

If she really wants the Scouting experience for her son, why would she want to put him at a disadvantage to do so?

[PackCommittteeChair 10]

Last night we had our meeting with Council and the parents. The meeting was called by Council and attended by: the District Commissioner (modiator of the meeting), the District Executive, our Unit Commissioner, the Cubmaster, the Assistant Cubmaster; myself, the Pack Committee Chairperson, the Tiger Den Leader, a Boy Scout Troop Assistant Scoutmaster, and the parents. It was resolved that the boy is not eligible to be a Tiger Scout. This decision was based upon the June 2004 Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the position statement submitted by the Pack's Chartered Organization.

 

The family indicated that they plan to appeal this decision. The Council representatives stated that during this appeal process, their son, cannot attend any den or pack functions due to the fact that he is not registered, nor never was registered with BSA, and therefore BSA insurance will not cover him.

 

Thank you everyone for your valuable input on this issue!

[nldscout 18]

"The family indicated that they plan to appeal this decision. "

 

To whom would you appeal this decision? You cannot force the CO to accept a scout of adult.

 

What a great waste of a lot of people's time to confirm what everyone already knew.