What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[SeattlePioneer 144]

I know all the arguments for uniforms, and I support uniforming.

 

But uniforming is not a requirement for Scouting, although I suppose individual units are free to enforce uniform standards if they wish.

 

But there are a lot of competing values in Scouting besides uniforming which are routinely ignored by zealous uniforming units. Usually in such units such standards are maintained by adult leadership, not boy leadership.

 

And "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind" has to mediate uniforming standards as well.

 

Then there are the methods used to enforce such standards. Personally I favor using a good example to set and change uniforming standards myself, and that can be effective. In one pack I was working with, there were no adult leaders uniformed when I served as a Tiger Cub Den Leader for a year. During the course of that year and since then program leaders have increasingly been uniformed, each leader deciding for themselves to make the step. In another pack, that has been a much slower process.

 

And then there's just being stupid by alienating a leader such as that described in the opening post of this thread.

 

So it's not just "supporting" uniforming. We both do that. It's comes to a question of what leadership methods you use to achieve that purpose.

 

But go right ahead and put the arm on people if you wish. I prefer my methods.

[kari_cardi 10]

"The use of the uniform creates a sense of camaraderie, a sense of equality and a sense of pride by way of public expression of the badging they have earned and insignia to which they belong."

 

And these goals can be met by wearing the uniform shirt without the uniform pants, taking the argument right back around to the OP.

 

My family has enjoyed riding in an annual bike tour of 3000 cyclists. We had camaraderie, equality and pride based on participation wristband. That feeling was based far more on what we did together than what we wore to do it.

[BDPT00 41]

Do you wear blue jeans?

[camilam42 10]

@ sasha;

 

Yes, that is true. I won't argue that point with you. However, if the BSA is a uniformed organization and finds value in that method, why wouldn't one who belongs to that organization want to follow that method?

 

While some view it as a suggestion, it really is more than that. It is an ideal which has helped to build the BSA into what it is today. There is a purpose behind the uniform. Insofar as that is the case, the BSA has determined that the uniform includes a shirt and pants, as well as other pieces, which complete the uniform.

 

I don't begrudge you anything, your opinion is your own. However, part of holding an opinion is knowing that it can be modified and that it can come in line with a more objective way of thinking. That, though, isn't my job. I can simply support the methods which are proven to work in the BSA. That is what I am doing. The uniform method is not something I find to be whimsical or passe. It isn't something I find to be a mere suggestion, but rather I find it to be an ideal by which the BSA has leveraged it's entire existence upon. While, strictly speaking not absolutely necessary, I don't think that the BSA would be what it is today if only a shirt were the basis on which Scouting was built uniform wise. That is my opinion.

 

I base my opinion on the current policy, on the writings and views of Bill Hillcourt, Robert Baden-Powell, and countless thousands of Scouts and Scouters from 1907 until today. It is this opinion that guides me in holding to the various methods which work. I am not in the business of re-inventing the wheel. I am in the business of doing what is good for the Scouts.

 

I believe that the BSA's policy on uniforming (as well as other methods) is worth the effort, time, and even money. At least I know where my money is going if I buy a uniform. I don't look at it so much as a burden, but as a way of giving to the BSA to continue their mission. Is it more expensive? Sure, but have you looked at a gallon of milk lately? Or a cut of beef? Or a gallon of gas? I'm willing to pay the extra amount to know where my dollars are going. And as I've shown earlier in the thread, it is quite a minimal expense over time.

 

So, it comes to this. You are entitled to your opinion. I respect it. However, the methods to which I subscribe are proven to work. I will use them. My Scouts will use them. My Scouters will use them. It is their choice to belong to the organization and through education of the method (and other methods), they buy in and have no problem following them.

 

[kari_cardi 10]

camilan42, I appreciate your viewpoint as well whether or not I agree with it. However, I do want to point out that scouters have reasons other than cost for not wearing uniform pants, perfectly valid reasons, like lack of pants that fit for function.

[Beavah 205]

However, if the BSA is a uniformed organization and finds value in that method, why wouldn't one who belongs to that organization want to follow that method? While some view it as a suggestion, it really is more than that. It is an ideal which has helped to build the BSA into what it is today.

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

Jumpin' the shark a bit there, eh?

 

The uniform is not an Ideal. We have an Ideals Method. The Ideal is the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Personally, I think troops do OK without perfect uniforming. In fact, perfect uniforming is almost always a sign that they're doin' a poor job with other methods that I think are more important in terms of their impact on kids - things like youth leadership and adult relationships and outdoors. I'd much rather have a unit spend a lot of effort on their outdoor program or patrol method than spend a lot of effort on sartorial perfection. Yeh see units do well without full uniforms all the time, but yeh really don't see units do well without a strong outdoor program.

 

That's not to say uniforming isn't a worthwhile thing to nudge from time to time, or live by example. Just that the full uniforming police in my mind make the same sort of error as the advancement-focused/mill folks.

 

Beavah

[camilam42 10]

In fact, perfect uniforming is almost always a sign that they're doin' a poor job with other methods that I think are more important in terms of their impact on kids - things like youth leadership and adult relationships and outdoors.

 

Beavah,

 

Can you please point me to those facts that you base your opinion on? Where does perfect (I'd rather say proper) uniforming provide a sign of poor performance in other areas?

 

We will have to disagree about the uniforming method. I find great value in it and I will continue to promote it until such time as one can show me facts to the contrary which may change my view.

 

I'm not above changing my view, but I will need substantial facts on which to change the opinion I have intimated above.

 

Thanks Beavah, I appreciate it.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

[qwazse 4345]

cam,

 

I think my experience meshes with Beav's. When we work hard at getting boys and adults perfectly uniformed, we might get well more than half our boys looking sharp. But, time spent doing that is time not spent teaching first aid, or a survival skill, or something else.

 

Moreover, time spent in anything but the gentlest discussion with an already-very-caring adult about the issue is time not spent counseling the boys, etc ...

 

You only have so much time, so you pick your battles ...

[camilam42 10]

@ qwazse,

 

That's all good and well, but I do believe that proper uniforming does teach the Scouts. The method has existed since the beginning and it is one which, in my honest opinion, is just as important as teaching first-aid or whittling or any other discipline.

 

The Scout is taught accountability for his actions. The Scout is taught that there are standards by which he is to comport himself. These are things that have been lost in society today.

 

I'm all for spending time with the Scouts. I am all for making sure that the Scout can be effective in CPR or camping or some other area, but I think that proper uniforming is also a way to spend time with the Scout. As I've said several times (and I think you agree), "If it's not good for the Scout, then I won't do it."

 

As for taking time away from the Scouts by having a conversation with the ASM, I have found that, practically speaking the conversation (over a cup of coffee or a campfire) rarely takes time away from the Scouts. That is a time management issue, not a stripping of time with the Scout.

 

I understand your point, I just think that holding the Scout accountable and to a standard through the uniform method is as important as any other discipline. Fortunately for me (and my opinion), the BSA agrees.

[Jeffrey H 25]

"Do you wear blue jeans?"

 

I have been know to wear a pair. I have also been known to show up at scouting events and meetings in full "civilian" clothing. My preference is if I can't wear the full uniform, then I will not wear any portion of it. Interestingly, I have never been criticized for showing up "out of uniform" for a scouting event. I serve with other Scouters who are graceful and forgiving thankfully. It's a privilege to wear the uniform, but thank goodness it's never a requirement to wear it to take part in a great program.

 

From a personal standpoint, I don't really care for the look of jeans with the uniform shirt. I don't call anyone else out for it, just don't care for it myself.

 

 

[Oak Tree 15]

"the BSA is a uniformed organization"

 

Ha. This is a big part of the problem for those who insist that everyone should wear the full uniform. The BSA does not require a uniform for participation. You don't have to have a uniform to be an Eagle Scout. You don't have to have a uniform to go to summer camp. There's no rule on whether you should wear the uniform at troop meetings.

 

At summer camp the great majority of Scouts all wear just the shirt. They all get fed at the dining hall regardless.

 

If you were really a uniformed organization, the uniform would be required. You can't be a policeman on patrol if you're not in uniform. You have to wear a uniform in the military. You have to wear a uniform to work the register at McDonald's. You have to wear a uniform to play sports - the referee will not let you into the game without a legal uniform.

 

The BSA pretends that it is a fully uniformed organization, just the way the drivers and police officers on the interstate pretend that the speed limit is 65mph.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

So why not just drop the uniform and be done with it, or is this one of those "de facto" things where the uniform will go away on the local unit level and we just dont talk about i

[Beavah 205]

Where does perfect (I'd rather say proper) uniforming provide a sign of poor performance in other areas?

 

Well, I reckon yeh answered your own question, eh?

 

"The Scout is taught accountability for his actions. The Scout is taught that there are standards by which he is to comport himself. These are things that have been lost in society today."

 

In other words, Adult Run, with the adults actin' as authority rather than havin' mentoring relationships with the youth.

 

So in order to enforce "proper" uniforming, yeh are willing to give shorter shrift to two other Methods of Scouting. Not just willin', eh? Proud.

 

That's the way it usually plays out in most troops.

[camilam42 10]

@ Oak Tree;

 

The BSA pretends that it is a fully uniformed organization, just the way the drivers and police officers on the interstate pretend that the speed limit is 65mph.

 

Thanks for your perspective. I for one, find it to be honest. I do have a question or two regarding your statement though? Just because not everyone follows the policy, does that mean that the policy has no merit or it doesn't exist? So, by it's own definition, required or not, the BSA is, in fact, a uniformed organization. Whether or not the uniform is absolutely required is not really germane to the conversation and it misses the point. My point isn't that it is absolutely required. If you go back and read what I've written, you'll see that I acknowledge that it isn't required, per se, but rather that I expect my Scouts to comply, because it is a uniformed organization. If they don't, they are called on it, but there are no further ramifications (It's not like I'm confiscating badges or putting them in time out). The same holds true for the Scouters. Because the expectation exists and both groups understand, through emphasis and education, that this is an expectation, there is no problem with it. They take pride in the uniform (not undue or covetous pride, mind you, but rather righteous pride in knowing that they are doing their part in being a good and recognizable steward for Scouting).

 

I will say this though, just because a person or an authority figure doesn't follow the rules, as in your example of speeding, doesn't mean that he is right or justified in his action. If he is pulled over, he will either be warned or cited. Ignoring the law, in your example, does not grant immunity from it. You're really comparing apples and oranges, though. My second question, how does a law compare to an expectation, in this instance?

 

Like I said, thanks for your perspective, I do appreciate it.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

[camilam42 10]

@ Beavah

 

In other words, Adult Run, with the adults actin' as authority rather than havin' mentoring relationships with the youth.

 

So in order to enforce "proper" uniforming, yeh are willing to give shorter shrift to two other Methods of Scouting. Not just willin', eh? Proud.

 

That's the way it usually plays out in most troops.

 

Well, thanks for short sighting my entire point, Beavah. You've also missed the point. This isn't about being adult run. This is about being Adult led.

 

The uniform method is one of several methods my troop uses. But, and I'll say it again, the uniform method holds the same weight. This isn't just an adult decision, this is a collaboration between the Scouts and the Scouters. We decided this years ago and added it to our bylaws when the Patrol Leaders' Council decided that this was how they would like to see their troop run. The Scouters hold the Scouts accountable for it and it comes up every three years or so, but it is always re-affirmed, that the uniform method should be in place. This is in conjunction with the other methods we use which are, the patrol method, leadership development, outdoor, ideals, and yes, Beavah, we do use Adult Association.

 

While the Scouts do the majority of the work, there are times in which they do defer to the Scouters. It is necessary and it is expected. I don't think that it is out of line to incorporate all of the methods equally, which is what we try to do, but as with all pre-teens and young teenagers, they do need to be held to task, especially when they are utilizing as much freedom as they are with the patrol method.

 

Part of the adult association is that the Scout will defer to the accountability measures put in place by the SPL's, the Committee and themselves. This includes proper uniforming.

 

If you are somehow intimating that this is a covetous or a malformed sense of pride...Sir, I disagree and so do my Scouts and Scouters. The sense of pride is not in how they wear the uniform, but why they wear the uniform. And that is not a bad thing.(This message has been edited by camilam42)(This message has been edited by camilam42)