camilam42

@SeattlePioneer; Umm. I haven't seen anyone post on this thread that they are in any way opposed to uniforming as a method of Scouting, let alone a "faction." It's a question of how you use the uniforming method in your unit. I've described how I do that several times in this thread, with widely variable results. Ah yes, my unit. It's ok to bang on my unit and critique my unit and expect me to run back and change my unit to the new way of thinking. I should be saying, "Boys, burn the shirts, put on your blue jeans and let's just say we're Scouts!" Is that it? Because I d

@ SeattlePioneer; What is this thread about again? Uniforming. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that one would focus on uniforming on this thread? It would. Wouldn't it stand to reason that the other methods would be discussed in their own appropriate threads? On every other message board I've EVER been to, that is how it works. But perhaps it doesn't here. Perhaps here, we title a thread about uniforms then talk about ideals. If that's the case, then I just need to reevaluate how this board works and adapt. So, please excuse me for focusing on uniforming in a uniforming threa

@ BadenP; Psychotic and vindictive? Just read your prior posts directed at Beavah and then myself, if you can't see those traits in them then there is nothing more to say. For myself I have nothing more to say to you except, may the Great Scoutmaster watch over the youth in your troop. Pax Ok, let us do that. A few exceprts. I will only respond to your posts though, not Beavah's. You say to me at 3/13/2012: 12:20:38 PM: "Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me." You then say to me at 3/14/2012: 11:01:37 AM: "So to you sco

@ BadenP; Are you reading the same thread? I'd like to see where I'm being "vicious" and "psychotic." I'm supporting a method and and getting raked pretty hard for it. I've been nothing, if not courteous and kind, yet I am the one who is personally attacked. I have not spoken about one single troop, other than my own. I have not said that I would impose my thoughts on any troop,including my own. This is a discussion about uniforming and the uniform method. I've been called uncharitable, I've been called unkind, I've been called an elitist. My motives have continually been call

@ BadenP; This discussion reminds me of the debate between the Catholics and the Protestants over who was right regarding the Reformation. Look all of us scout leaders sees value in the troop being in full uniform, but as several have pointed out that is not always possible due to a variety of situations economically and otherwise. The debate then becomes are the troops who are in uniform from the waist up only the same quality of scout as a fully uniformed troop and the answer to that is a resounding YES. Then the debate centers around quality of program with some of the posters implying

@ Beavah; One of the things yeh have to live through whenever scouters get together for the first time is a round of chest-thumping about each unit's great program. I don't for a second believe that. There are problems in my Troop and there are problems in the Pack which is associated with it. That is not what we're discussing here though. We're discussing uniforming. Right? Isn't that what this thread is about? I haven't delved into my Troop's politics too much, because this isn't the place for it. I have intimated what the Troop's position on uniforming is. Nothing more, no

@ Beavah; Yah, I reckon that's a might simplistic there, camilam42. The fellow who is workin' two jobs just so his family can get by may be usin' that cup of coffee just so he can stay alert durin' his shift. I think we should be a might careful, or at least kind, about judging folks for their financial choices. That $180 can be used for a uniform, or it can be used to fully outfit a lad in the camping gear he needs to participate in the outdoor program - sleeping bag, pad, rain gear, hiking boots. Or it might be needed to repair the refrigerator that just broke down. So, you're

@ Beavah; First, boys don't naturally go hog-wild about adopting and ratifying charters and bylaws over and over again without a lot of adult driving. Second, there isn't a group of red-blooded boys anywhere that wouldn't read da first two sentences and point out that (1) the BSA uniform doesn't make yeh look like a "backwoodsman" at all and (2) that the BSA uniform doesn't cover up differences in country the way old B-P's uniform did, it identifies yeh as American. Boys have a keen sense for that sort of thing, eh? Go back and read my post, Beavah. The vast majority of the Sco

What exactly is the source of all these accusations that units that set a high standard for uniforming are always on the brink of failure and destruction? There is none. I've asked that question here and I've not yet received an answer. I've asked for some credible evidence which would change my opinion, because I do have the ability to adapt, if my opinion can be proven wrong. That hasn't happened yet either. In my estimation, the reason that some don't like uniforms is twofold: 1. They see it as a money making scam by the BSA. The look at the uniform changes as a way for

@ SeattlePioneer; If I wanted to devote all my time to uniforming issues I could do so, but my pack would collapse. I fail to see how that could possibly be the case. If, as you say, your Scouts can apply their popcorn monies to uniforms, then there really is no reason why a uniforming standard cannot be put into place. Unless of course, you don't set sales goals for your Pack, which then would lead to some Scouts not making enough dollars to be able to get a uniform. But I seriously doubt that this is the case, as you comport yourself to be a good leader and I believe that, 100%.

Does anyone care to suggest that this is wrong, bad, inadequate, sloppy or whatever? I won't pass judgment, but I will offer this for consideration: Wearing uniforms has been a method of the Scouting movement from the beginning. Decades of experience show uniforming to have many benefits, including these: Equality. The uniform represents a democratic ideal of equality. Boys from various cultures and different economic levels wear the same uniform and cooperate as equals. Identification. The uniform identifies a boy as a member of the Cub Scouts. Badges on the uniform

@ BadenP; The passage you quoted was taken out of context and shows me that you truly believe what I said in my post. I think your PLC can require full uniform, but tell me are you going to turn away any boy who can not fulfill that requirement? If so that is elitism. That passage was not taken out of context, it was/is the basis for the troop I am associated with adopting and expecting the uniform. Of course we won't turn away a boy who cannot fulfill the requirement. IF you go back and read my posts from earlier, you'll see that we have a loan closet from which a needy Scout c

@BadenP; Quoting BP is nice, yet remember the first couple of scouting most of the boys had partial or no uniforms, are you saying those boys were not true scouts? I hope not. Baden Powell sure didn't think that way, look at some early photographs of him with scouts, many of them in partial or no uniforms. Yes full uniforms are the the ideal to strive for yet the reality is that for various reasons that goal is not always obtainable. Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me. Did you even read my post? I'm curious. I quoted the bylaws as wa

I just went back to our bylaws and I found the following as a basis for the importance in our troop. This is documented as being from 1985 and has been ratified 8 times with another ratification of the bylaws coming up this May. For the boy a uniform is a big, attraction, and when it is a dress such as backwoodsmen wear it takes him in imagination to be directly linked up with those frontiersmen who are heroes to him. The uniform also makes for Brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country. The Scout uniform, moreover, is simple a

@ Beavah; I might humbly suggest that full use of the Youth Leadership method would have the youth leaders who set the standard being responsible for helping their fellow scouts to live up to it, rather than having adults do it. Trust me, they do; but they also look to the adult leaders to back them up. So we do. I might gently encourage yeh to also consider whether "calling Scouts out" is consistent with the Ideals method where we pledge ourselves to be helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind. You must assume that I am standing there with a yard stick at the ready to beat

I guess I'm a uniform advocate - but I'm advocating using the uniform appropriately as a tool to deliver the Scouting program. I don't want anyone to "copy" my "emphasis" - but I would expect my unit to follow through on whatever standard they set for themselves with regard to uniforming - just like I would expect them to follow through on their plans for troop meetings or camp outs. And isn't that the point of the uniform method? Since it is a method, we employ it in my troop. Since we employ it in my troop, we support it to the fullest extent possible. I have made that abundantly cle

@ Beavah In other words, Adult Run, with the adults actin' as authority rather than havin' mentoring relationships with the youth. So in order to enforce "proper" uniforming, yeh are willing to give shorter shrift to two other Methods of Scouting. Not just willin', eh? Proud. That's the way it usually plays out in most troops. Well, thanks for short sighting my entire point, Beavah. You've also missed the point. This isn't about being adult run. This is about being Adult led. The uniform method is one of several methods my troop uses. But, and I'll say it again, th

@ Oak Tree; The BSA pretends that it is a fully uniformed organization, just the way the drivers and police officers on the interstate pretend that the speed limit is 65mph. Thanks for your perspective. I for one, find it to be honest. I do have a question or two regarding your statement though? Just because not everyone follows the policy, does that mean that the policy has no merit or it doesn't exist? So, by it's own definition, required or not, the BSA is, in fact, a uniformed organization. Whether or not the uniform is absolutely required is not really germane to the conver

@ qwazse, That's all good and well, but I do believe that proper uniforming does teach the Scouts. The method has existed since the beginning and it is one which, in my honest opinion, is just as important as teaching first-aid or whittling or any other discipline. The Scout is taught accountability for his actions. The Scout is taught that there are standards by which he is to comport himself. These are things that have been lost in society today. I'm all for spending time with the Scouts. I am all for making sure that the Scout can be effective in CPR or camping or some ot

In fact, perfect uniforming is almost always a sign that they're doin' a poor job with other methods that I think are more important in terms of their impact on kids - things like youth leadership and adult relationships and outdoors. Beavah, Can you please point me to those facts that you base your opinion on? Where does perfect (I'd rather say proper) uniforming provide a sign of poor performance in other areas? We will have to disagree about the uniforming method. I find great value in it and I will continue to promote it until such time as one can show me facts to the cont

@ sasha; Yes, that is true. I won't argue that point with you. However, if the BSA is a uniformed organization and finds value in that method, why wouldn't one who belongs to that organization want to follow that method? While some view it as a suggestion, it really is more than that. It is an ideal which has helped to build the BSA into what it is today. There is a purpose behind the uniform. Insofar as that is the case, the BSA has determined that the uniform includes a shirt and pants, as well as other pieces, which complete the uniform. I don't begrudge you anything, yo

@SeattlePioneer; I will reiterate a point I made a little earlier: "While it isn't expressly required, except for National Jamboree and for attaining the National Honor Patrol Award, it is a method which seriously supports the boy and creates an atmosphere and a camaraderie which is good for the Scout. Which brings me back to my undying philosophy, "If it's not good for the Scout we won't do it." The uniform is good for the Scout. And if the Scouter is to be the first example for the Scout, He/She should be properly attired." This isn't a matter of being a "uniform nazi" or

@ SeattlePioneer; I get what you're saying, but I have to agree with Eagledad. I spoke about obedience. When one goes to an Eagle COH, obedience is spoken about referencing among other things, the BSA. The uniform is part of this. While it may be tiresome to talk about it, it wouldn't be IF everyone followed the uniform method. As I've illustrated above, it really isn't tiresome for us, because we strongly encourage our Scouts and Scouters to buy into the uniform method. "The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image

@ qwazse; Obviously, there are times when one will come across a Scouter who is not in it for the Scout, so it becomes about him. And then they often times get into the uniforming, to the Nth degree. That isn't who I'm speaking about. I'm speaking about the example given in the beginning. In my experience, I've found that those Scouters who follow the uniform method and are serious about it are better leaders. We do follow that method and we make sure we are able to impart the importance to each and every Scout AND Scouter. FYI, do the same thing with the patrol method. We

@ acco40; When speaking of a "modified uniform" I am speaking of the so-called activities uniform or the "class B." While not mentioned in the insignia guide on the scouting website, a Council does have the leeway to approve them for use. Example: The Cubs in our local pack have Council approval to use an activities uniform when it is apparent that the uniform will become unduly abused or the potential for damage arises. Again, if it's not good for the Scout, we won't do it. There are times when wearing the official uniform is not advantageous, but the need for uniformity alw