The Class B Neckerchief

[DYB-Mike]

Hi Folks,

 

I didnt want to hijack the thread since it goes in a little different direction but I think it also addresses the best outdoor uniform question.

 

Im planning proposing to my Pack Committee the concept of a Class B neckerchief. Currently all we have for Class B wear is a T-shirt, which obviously doesnt cut the mustard during a New England winter. Recently my son and I wore our T-shirts over sweatshirts and it wasnt very comfortable. I had begun to recommend that we look into Class B sweatshirts. A recent camp-in at a museum attended by a number of other packs also raised the Class B issue with me since I had asked that the uniform be worn but several parents did not feel the uniform was suited to the nature of the activity. Again, it was too cold for the T-shirts.

 

Than I remembered a comment on one of the threads on this Forum noting that the neckerchief was a universal symbol of Scouting and that the poster recognized a group of scouts in civilian clothes due to the fact that they all were wearing neckerchiefs

 

To me this solved the problem of having to build a Class B wardrobe for the various seasons. Just wear what is appropriate for the weather and put on the neckerchief. Obviously the uniform would be required for formal or ceremonial occasions.

 

The neckerchief would be custom with the Pack number and location to identify us, maybe a unique design depending on price. I believe it could even be worn with the uniform so long as its made by a BSA licensed manufacturer.

 

As for the problem of the perfect outdoor uniform, my son and I have worn our Class As on hikes and such and while its not necessarily uncomfortable Im still paranoid about ripping, staining, or otherwise destroying the uniform. Im sure we would all agree that it aint cheap to replace! I think being able to choose from ones personal stock of clothing to dress as one feels appropriate for the weather and activity, having just a simple neckerchief as the single unifying official garment, is an ideal solution.

 

Im sure my revelation is not novel and Id be willing to bet that a number of packs and troops out there have adopted this idea. Id like to hear comments pro and con, maybe something I havent considered. I dont know if its allowed on the Forum but Id be interested in recommendations of a manufacturer youve had a good experience with.

 

Thanks!

 

YIS

Mike

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Rather than working on a neckerchief, something the boys may or may not take too, how about a Pack hat? It could be worn almost everywhere (except in some churches)in almost any weather and the youth would not outgrow them near as quick as shirts and pants

[infoscouter]

While troops have the option of creating custom neckerchiefs and hats, I don't believe that packs have that flexibility. I would be concerned that the Scouts and parents wouldn't understand the distinction and would substitute the Activity uniform items (I am not fond of the term Class B :-) ) for the Field uniform neckerchief, which is not an option in Cub Scouting.

[Stosh]

The BSA offers one uniform. Anything other than that is not a BSA uniform. If one wishes to create their own uniform, it makes no difference what is chosen. Of one wishes to all wear pajamas with a neckerchief and call it their "class B" uniform, so be it. Why does one feel it necessary to get the approval of others for the rules one makes up on their own.

 

Make up any "uniform" imaginable. Call it a "class B" uniform, but remember there is no such thing as a BSA "class B" uniform. If one needs to know what a BSA uniform looks like, refer to the literature of BSA.

 

Next we're going to have to deal with "class B" hiking boots and "class B" underwear.

 

And yes the Brown Shoe Company used to make uniform shoes for scouts in 4 different styles.

 

If one is worried about having the boys all recognizable when not in uniform, may I suggest lime-green face paint. You'll know your boys from at least a quarter-mile away. :^)

 

I think National is discussing an official BSA underwear, but they haven't decided on olive, tan or cammo. The briefs committee and the boxer committee is just beginning negotiations.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Since there are no uniform police, you are really free to do whatever you want to do. It's up to your conscience..

 

As someone else pointed out, BSA uniform rules don't permit Cub Scouts to wear unofficial neckers or caps.

 

You could also buy blue mock turtlenecks to be worn under the shirts, even have the necks embroidered "Pack 996."

 

Yet another option would be fleece jackets with indentifiying embroidery.

 

For the record, there is no such thing in BSA as a "Class A" or "Class B" uniform.

[fgoodwin]

I don't have the reference in front of me, but I believe the SM HB makes reference to a "field" uniform and an "activity" uniform.

 

Also, Scouting magazine recently (a year ago?) answered a letter in which it said it was appropriate for Scouts & Scouters to salute the flag in their activity uniforms, because that is considered an official BSA uniform.

[fgoodwin]

I found it:

 

====

 

Saluting in uniform

 

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0605/d-lett.html

 

In addition to the official Class A Scout uniform, the BSA also has a Class B uniformofficial Scout pants or shorts with a troop or camp T-shirt. My question regards protocol during flag ceremonies: Should a Scout use the Scout salute while in a Class B uniform or place his right hand over his heart?

 

Christopher Dillon

Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 24

Bloomsburg, Pa.

 

First, when referring to uniforms, Class A and Class B are military terms that are not used in the BSA. The correct Scouting terms for the two versions of the uniform are "official uniform" and "activity uniform." Although less formal, the activity uniform is still considered an official uniform, and therefore it is appropriate for boys to use the Scout salute while wearing it during a flag ceremony.

[SSScout]

The County Recreation Dept. uses both 'uniform' t-shirts AND neckerchiefs for their groups. If you sign up for one of their summer camp activities, for your fee you get a colorful T-shirt and a large bandana. The child is expected to wear both when the camp travels on it's field trips to the museums, etc. Makes the groups very distinctive.

 

If I had it to do over again, I would declare my Cub Pack would only wear the yellow necker and ignore the rank appropriate ones. Save $$$. Wear the yellow one with your tshirt or sweater, be distinctive, be a Cub Scout on a trip.

 

 

[DYB-Mike]

Greetings scouters,

 

Thanks everyone for your insights and recommendations.

 

Jblake47, Im not seeking anyones approval here. Im just looking for feedback and ideas. I believe thats what this Forum is all about?

 

Furthermore, the neckerchiefs arent intended as a means of keeping track of our boys. I envisioned them as a cheap (operative word here) and easy way of giving our boys some uniformity, to let folks know where they are from, and to identify them as scouts as they engage in activities which, in my humble opinion, the official uniform is not practical.

 

OldGreyEagle, my Chairperson and I did discuss hats, in fact she suggested a hat with the neckerchief, but you yourself hit on the downside to the hat. Based upon what Ive been reading here in the Forum, the consensus appears to be that a respectful scout removes his hat when indoors so, depending on the venue, the hat may be off more that its on. Lord knows I have a tough enough time keeping my Webelos son and his official hat together!

 

Infoscouter, thanks for the heads-up on neckerchief substitution. I have since noted that prohibition in my research. We will be mindful of that should we opt to proceed with the activity neckerchiefs.

 

I checked the National site and couldnt find any official definition of activity or utility uniform, either in scanning through the on-line Insignia Guide or by doing a site search. I noted nothing in the Cub Scout Leader Book either. Is the Scoutmaster Handbook the only place to reference this type of uniform?

 

YIS

Mike

 

 

 

[Stosh]

I wasn't offering any approval or disapproval, I was only commenting on the fact that as we make up things as we go along we may or may not have the blessing of BSA. If one goes and has a "class B" t-shirt made using BSA logo on it printed by an unauthorized vendor, one begins to get into some rather grey areas where one's footing becomes tenuous. I really don't care what other troops may or may not accept as "class B", but if the BSA doesn't have a "class B" it doesn't make much difference what that "uniform" consists of. But it does make sense to be aware of trademark and copyright infractions.

 

If my boys take their uniform off at a scouting activity, i.e. to cook or clean up camp, it is nice if they have a BSA t-shirt underneath, even if it's just like everyone else's in the troop. It's a troop t-shirt then, not a Boy Scout "class B" uniform. I would not be presumptuous to think or teach that BSA remotely officially approves of this practice in any form.

 

When the BSA comes out with a "field uniform" and provides an inspection guide for it, then and only then, will BSA have a second, less formal, uniform.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Hiromi]

I personally don't like it when scouts start looking too civilian. I will discontinue using the terms class A and B and go with the official uniform and activity uniform (But with the caveat that these terms are ridiculous because obviously the scouters on this forum have expressed less than a consensus on the notion that the official uniform should be the out door activity uniform. It makes my head spin.)

 

I think the official uniform is very attractive. We use it for nearly %100 percent of our activities. It is perfect for our after school activities and parades and field trips to museums and such. It is the best public face we have for uniforms. But I still think that BSA would do itself a favor by offering an official activity uniform for different use and regions and climate. It could be an option and not a mandate. We even thinned a forest for two consecutive weekends last fall in uniform for all the public to see- we looked great- but the uniforms took a severe beating. I think it would be really cool is the BSA offered different ensemble: suggestions that they would offer in their catalog, like--

 

Boy Scout Jungle Uniform

Boy Scout Woodland Uniform

Boy Scout Klondike Uniform

Etecetra.

 

Be that as it may- I still detest the Official Cub Scout Uniform and will have nothing to do with it. I think there was real wisdom in allowing webelos (cub scouts) to transition over to the khaki tan. I think the one "scout" uniform is appropriate for all scouts- whatever Irving might think.

 

 

Will my kids presence at inner District and council events raise a few eye-browse?- Sure. So What? They will be prepared for raised eye-browse and inquisitions from the ever present uniform police. Will my scouts look awesome in their "Boss of the Prairies" (Campaign hats) and khaki tans - you betcha! Are they unhappy that they aren't wearing the blue and gold - No Way Jose!

 

And each den and the patrol get to all pick their group neckerchief. They will be 45 inches and home-made. We went with Pitch black, Forest Green, and Navy Blue.

 

We don't wear slides yet in our unit but tie the neckers with square knots. We are considering Bob Whites suggestion in an earlier post of a squirrel skull. Pretty awesome. The official slides fall off during the hour long PT we have at most meetings the square knot it practical and it looks good (More Cowboy).

 

In an area of Illinois with such lousy uniform practice in general; the idea of sticking to official BSA uniform guidelines seems almost arcane. People around here just think- well we can wear jeans with a shirt and no necker, - or a t-shirt from some summer camp a few years back or whatever.

 

I say- It is either uniform (In the true sense of the word meaning that we are all alike) or it is not uniform. Part of our uniform is a white tea-shirt to be worn underneath the official khaki shirt. If it gets hot we take off the uniform shirts and have the uniform whites. This keeps the scouts looking professional.

 

Uniforming is a cultural thing. Being that my CO is a uniformed private school, it is not a big transition for my scouts to change from one uniform to another. It is like an after-to-school sports program almost. (In fact the tan uniform pants at the CO's school are more rugged than the BSA pants (They have a reinforced double layer knee section).

 

You would think that the BSA in all their 100 years of experience and accrued collective wisdom (He wrote with scathing sarcasm) would offer a rugged uniform pants at least! Half the kids in my units the knees are nearly worn through.

 

 

Bottom line- I think a Troop or Pack should look like scouts AND be as idiosyncratic as they need to be to keep the esprit de corps in their unit. Sometimes a scoutmaster has to say- "BSA be damned!-We're Scouts first."

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[OldGreyEagle]

I may be thinking the wrong way, so if I am, I apologize up front.

 

When the field uniform is discussed, it is generally commented that the quality is poor and the price too high. Now, we want to increase the number of parts of uniform for sale and increase the the quality. What do you think reducing the number of units sold will do for the cost of any one piece of the "quality" uniform?

 

It may be time to just have a necker that can be worn over anything as the activity uniform and let people make their own decision on what to buy

[Hiromi]

Walmart sells a really smart looking line of work clothes. Very uniform looking - big functional pockets- heavy cotton blend, nice grey, blue, and buff colors. SOme are pretty inexpensive. I bought 25 green basball caps for $3 each two monthes ago (I just drew on our logo with a Sharpie).

 

Scouting is so rear in my neck of the woods- it would be pretty strange if someone asked you if you were BSA or a BP scout even if you were not plainly marked as such by wearing the necker and hat and a scout-like uniform. Around here at least- no one knows about any other kind of scouting than a BSA. (ANd hardly anyone really cares either). Most peple just love to see boys behaving themselves and doing something productive outside. What a site for sore eyes!

 

My philosophy about my unit is- let's do our darndest to make BSA look good. EVen if we know we aren't following every suggestion handed down to us from Irving).

 

In our town people see our scouts and say- that is how a scout oughta look. (Except for the other scouters- who don't approve).

 

LOng haired undisciplined ill mannered out of uniform boys don't make BSA look good. And it is better for BSA and FOS I suppose that a lot of units don't wear uniforms in public- they wouldn't be doing anybody a favor.

 

THe uniform and the conduct often times goes hand in hand. A rule of thumb for Home Schooling is- if you can't get first-time discipline out of your child- you are probably not ready to begin homeschooling them. That rule I suppose can be applied to the effecitveness of a scout unit. If a boy isn't obedient, he probably will start getting real forgetful about bringing his uniform to scouts.

 

I am really seeing the logic to a boy lead patrol- but the minimal mandates of scouting culture need to be instilled from the adult leadership down.

 

Pappy(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[DYB-Mike]

Greetings Folks,

 

Thank you, OldGreyEagle; I think you understand where Im coming from. At the root of my post was a suggestion to creatively save our parents some money. A simple, traditional neckerchief costing the parent $3 or $4 (the rest of the cost subsidized by the Pack) versus a wardrobe of activity shirts (and maybe pants and shorts), varying by season, which must be discarded and replaced as the boy grows or destroys them.

 

Clearly, there is no choice on the official uniform end, but it would be nice to give some relief on the activity end. I think it would be more of a benefit if the parents could spend the money on an activity that the boys would get something out of rather than an overpriced sweatshirt or t-shirt.

 

Pappy, I for one like the blue and gold uniform. It not only looks good but its traditional, going back to 1930 and the very beginning of cubbing in the United States. It has always been the intention, both of B-P and the BSA, that cubs and boy scouts are separate and for each group to have its own things and I, for the most part, concur with that wisdom. It appears from your posts that you have blended the two groups. If it works for your unit its not for me to say nay. In my humble opinion I feel theres plenty of time for the responsibilities of scouting, heck, it pretty much begins in Webelos. I enjoy seeing the cubs just be cubs!

 

My 6-year-old son was given his cousins Tiger Cub hat and neckerchief in anticipation of his signing up this spring. Hes very excited and has proudly been wearing the hat around the house. Dare I say such an unmanly thing, but he looks awful cute!

 

YIS

Mike

 

 

 

[Hiromi]

YEh, I understand.

 

I guess it is a taste issue. I really loathe the blue and gold and Cubbing culture in general. It is my own personal Idaho of prejudice.

 

I was a cub and in webelos. I have issues with the transition from cubbing to scouts- and I am still working it out on my end. I have begun to transition my consoldiated unit into a bifurcated Cub Pack and Boy Scout Troop.

 

But I am still the overall leader of both, and have not yet gone with the den-mother and Cub Scouting rank advancement thing. But I do have a female ASM now!(And two other male ASMs).

 

My scouts get their first promotion when they are third graders and get to have some denner authority.

 

Once they are in fifth grade they begin to matriculate into the junior patrol as senior weblos. (THis was actually advised to me by my District exec- who also thinks that webelos ought to get into a BS group asap to insure transitioning).

 

If my unit grows I plan on allowing the older boys to split into their own patrols so they are with their own age groups.

 

But I realize this is not for everyone.

 

ANd if you think they look cute in tiger regalia- try a campaign hat- Knock Out Punch of cuteness!

 

Pappy(This message has been edited by Pappy)