A NEW Uniform

[hops_scout]

Around here, it also shows "style". Lots of people wear them to school, etc

[scoutingagain]

My thoughts on the uniform.

 

The pants should be replaced with a different style/type. As noted in other threads, many troops do not use the pants. They have spoken with their actions and wallets. A non-CAMO BDU style pant, would have much more acceptance, if the price can be maintained at a reasonable level.

 

I also like FOG's idea of a Field Jacket that would go with the pants.

 

SA

[mk9750]

(ok, everyone prepare to place their hand over their mouth and giggle softly...)

 

What are BDU pants?

 

I've seen this acronym (I think) in this and other uniform threads, and have hoped that it would get explained before I had to flash my ignorance. Can't wait any longer.

 

As to redesigning the uniform, I personally like the look, though I do feel the poly/cotton shirt would be more accurately refered to as "vapor - lock" fabric.

 

Why do some have such a tough time getting their Troop to wear a complete uniform? Except for cost issues, which can be overcome in a number of ways, I just can't think of a legitimate reason NOT to wear a complete uniform when it is appropriate. To suggest that Troop members won't wear them says to me that it hasn't been made a priority by whoever is viewed as the leaders (in the best Troops, this would be the PLC, in some Troops it would be the adults).

 

Mark

[Bob White]

I do not usually make predictions but I will make one here.

 

I think there will be a major uniform change in the near future. What it will be I have no idea. But if it happens it will be in about 6 years to coincide with the 100th anniversary of scouting.

 

I also predict that no matter what is done there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth until a new uniform cames along in another 25 years, after which there will be even more wailing, whining, and gnashing of teeth.

 

There is no one on this board, at national, or in any council, that is capable of developing a uniform that will please all 6 million+ adult and youth members. Even if they please 9 out of 10 members there will still leave over 600,000 critics.

 

And if even one one-hundredth of one percent of that tiny fraction of members who don't like the uniform write in to this forum, that will still be 60 posts.

 

So hang on, change is inevitable and so is the fact that you cannot please all the people all the time.

 

 

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"What are BDU pants?"

 

BDU is the acronym for "Battle Dress Uniform," the camo uniform worn by the military that replaced the green fatigues. I still find it amusing that Air Force computer operators in Dayton, Ohio wear camo BDUs.

 

For my part, I have never found a pair BDU pants that fit me properly which is strange as the old fatigues fit me as if they were made for me. I also don't care too much for the double seat of the BDU pants, that might be practical for combat but it isn't too practical for sitting on your butt and watching TV.

[purcelce]

Foggy wrote "BDU is the acronym for "Battle Dress Uniform," the camo uniform worn by the military that replaced the green fatigues. I still find it amusing that Air Force computer operators in Dayton, Ohio wear camo BDUs."

 

 

That USAF computer operator in Ohio is or will be deployed. Those days of not deploying are long gone. Now everybody in the AF uniform goes across the big pond sooner or later.

 

Speaking of new uniforms, Foggy have you seen the new AF BDU replacement uniform?

 

http://www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123005370

 

Just take a deep breath before your look. I have a feeling you'll really go bonkers over this one. IMHO I don't like the new AF uniform,. We can do spin off....

 

[KoreaScouter]

Ditto to Purcel; there's not a BDU color scheme with the muted tones of greys/blues, that would enable the military office worker (they're in all branches, not just the Air Force) to blend in with his cubicle environment, making him safe from paper cuts and coffee scalds.

 

I don't understand the "part of a uniform" rationale. We've jawed this one to death (then again, apparently not). We would think someone was a lunatic if they only used part of the Advancement method, or the Outdoor method, etc. Yet, in some circles, it's okay to mix/match the uniform...

 

KS

[Fat Old Guy]

Percy stated, "That USAF computer operator in Ohio is or will be deployed."

 

Ah, but they aren't deployed in a danger zone while they're in Dayton.

 

[KoreaScouter]

FOG;

 

Methinks you may be missing the point. Putting aside the fact that I've lived in Dayton and could dispute your assertion that it's not a danger zone, the fact is that the BDU is a replacement for, not a substitute for, the old fatigues which were technically the "work-utility uniform". Any uniform with which you tuck the shirt into the pants is a "dress uniform" combination. There's only one work-utility uniform, regardless of what you're doing at the moment, or where you happen to perform that duty today -- that's the BDU. The woodland pattern is issued to everybody in basic training; they have no idea then where you'll be stationed permanently, or what you'll be doing as a specialty. You can't tell a recruit at uniform issue "You look like the pencil-pusher type; no BDUs for you". Moreover, everybody, regardless of specialty, has to shoot, do details, augment other specialties, etc. The only efficient way to do this is to issue the BDUs in basic.

 

KS

[purcelce]

FOGGY chimes "Ah, but they aren't deployed in a danger zone while they're in Dayton."

 

Looks like Ohio is a Danger Zone now! With the riots in Cincy, and the highway sniper, I will be wearing BDUs if I go through Ohio

 

 

[hops_scout]

Purcelce, thats been floating around on the internet for awhile now. How ugly!! Anyway... BDU's are probably the best way to go:) solid colors that is;)

[Chippewa29]

In regards to whomever said that the pants, socks, etc. should just be something similar from any store, this is what I've seen over the years. Instead of official Scout pants, Scout A buys a pair of green pants that look very similar to the BSA pants. Scout B buys a pair of pants that are a kind of green/tan color. Scout C buys a pair of pants that are tan. Scout D buys a pair of the jean-type khakis. Scout E buys a nice pair of blue jeans. Scout F wears jeans that are torn with holes in the knees.

 

I've heard all the arguments. My current pair of Scout pants was bought in 1996. Since then, I've worn them to over 300 troop meetings and 45-50 campouts, not to mention service projects, crossovers, roundtable, etc. They are still in excellent condition. Yes, they are more expensive than most of my pants, but when you look at the per use cost, it doesn't come to that much.

 

For a Scout, if they buy a pair of pants that is a size too large to start, they can usually get two years wear out of them (I got two years out of my first pair even though I grew over a foot in those two years). We usually have 45-46 troop meetings a year, plus an outdoor activity each month. A Scout that is active can get about 100 wearings or so out of those pants in two years. If they don't outgrow them during that time, they'll get even more uses out of them.

 

There are so many pairs of Scout pants floating out there right now, it shouldn't be that hard to get a unit outfitted. If the Scouts and families want it to happen bad enough, they'll find a way. I've seen Scouts whose parents claim they can't afford the pants and the Scout shows up for summer camp with $50 in cash to spend on pop and candy at the trading post. Its all a matter of priorities.

[Proud Eagle]

I have given this some additional thought. I have realized one thing about my thinking- I seem to automatically favor the way the military treats uniforming. Part of that has to do with my general attitude toward the military, my brief ROTC experience, and the fact that I know the military is one of the primary users of uniforms, so they should know what they are doing.

 

Scouting is not combat. The BDU may be great for the Army (actually the Army is already looking to new things, the Striker (or is it Stryker?) Brigade Combat Teams have been issued a new type of uniform from what I understand), but would they be great for BSA? I think we need to do a more careful analysis of why we use uniforming, what the uniform does, when and where the uniform is worn, and the various other factors. Unfortunately these are difficult questions that require much more thought than what is usually put into such things. Do we want a uniform for winter camping? or summer backpacking? or regular meetings? or something that can be layered and mixed to create everything from a winter uniform suitable to Alaska, to a summer uniform suitable for the most challenging Philmont trek, to the most formal awards ceremony based on some common elements? What does the uniform need to tell us? What characteristics of the wearer do we want to be most obvious by looking at the uniform?

 

 

All that being said the uniform we currently have is most like the Army class B uniform. (Green pants, light green shirt, belt w/brass buckle, dress shoes, tie required w/long sleeve, optional w/short sleeve). This is the uniform you most often see office workers, recruiters, ROTC instructors, and other such personnel wearing. The greatest difference between the BSA field uniform and the Army class B is that the Army B has far simpler insignia, providing a cleaner look.

 

Now the Army is somewhat clever. They are able to create a second uniform by simply adding a green jacket to the class B. This is the class A. The class A has far more/fancier insignia and looks more formal at the same time. (I don't really like the class A or B. They serve their purpose well, but I don't like the look of them at all. I greatly prefer the look of the dress blues. Incidental there is at least as wide of a range of opinions about the Army uniform as there are about the BSA uniform.)

 

Now if I had to pick something close to an off the shelf solution to the current uniforming issue I believe I would make the following changes:

(D)allow units to create their own "activities uniform" with very simple guidelines

©create a "field uniform" consist of solid OD BDUs w/simplified insignia

(B)re-designate the current field uniform as the "general purpose uniform"

(A)add a jacket to the current uniform to create the "general purpose dress uniform"

 

These changes would obviously require at least a few additional regulations. There would need to be some new insignia created for the field and dress options. Obviously the dress uniform would need a tie. Also, caps would not be appropriate headgear for the dress uniform.

 

There are several problems with this new scheme. First it creates too many different levels and types of uniforms. This level of complexity could cause problems on its own. The expense that would be added would be relatively small, seeing as a new scout would probably only need the GP uniform at first. The relatively low cost and high availability and durability of BDU type uniforms would make that a low cost option in the long term. The dress jacket would almost certainly be unnecessary in the first year. It could even be made a purely optional item.

 

The second major problem would be the non-optimized nature of BDUs. They are supposed to be a sort of catch all uniform for work details, combat, field training, and other activities. They are designed for the widest possible range of conditions, but optimized for none. The greatest weakness would be on outings such as backpacking trips. BDUs are, compared to many new things such as nylon hiking pants and shorts, relatively heavy, very slow to dry, less breathable, and more likely to mildew if damp. (summer BDUs fix this to some degree)

 

Third, BDU patterns and fabric is far from the most comfortable thing to wear in most conditions. It will sometimes be too tight, or too loose, or the heavy fabric will chafe, or some other problem. Movement, while not prevented by BDUs, is sometimes bogged down by the heavy weight fabric and the cut of BDUs.

 

So, perhaps the easy off the shelf solution is not such a good idea. Perhaps the best idea is to start by answering those fundamental questions about the uniform, questions that reflect the fundamental nature of Scouting. I don't know the answers to those questions yet, but I will be thinking on it. Perhaps BSA needs to do some organization wide soul searching about the uniform and then attack this question again. It seems to me a top to bottom, inside and out, review of the uniforming scheme used by the BSA, as a whole, (Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers, volunteer leaders, and professional staff) would be in order. This shouldn't be hurried, and it certainly shouldn't be led by pollster or fashion designers. It should be led by those foremost of experts: those carrying out and participating in the program.

 

After those fundamental questions about uniforms have been answered and evaluated we can move on to step two. Here the BSA should evaluate the current uniforms based on those answers. If the uniform is found to be lacking in some significant way then BSA should move to step three, evaluating the options. BSA should undertake a study of the uniforms used by foreign scouts, by uniformed professionals such as the military, police, forest rangers, and others that regularly wear uniforms. Then BSA should analyze the "civilian" attire appropriate to the various uses that the uniform should be able to fulfill. After all of this is done the decision can be made to alter or replace the uniform. Unless we do this right, we are all just speculating, musing; in short, wasting our time.

[VentureScoutNY]

 

 

Bob White posted: "I think there will be a major uniform change in the near future. What it will be I have no idea. But if it happens it will be in about 6 years to coincide with the 100th anniversary of scouting."

 

I really hope this is true. That would be great to see a new uniform for the 100th anniversary. And I think Proud Eagle should be part of the new uniform changes!

 

Proud Eagle brings about some really great questions that I will post here again and see what ideas we can get from them.

 

Proud Eagle posted:

 

-Do we want a uniform for winter camping? or summer backpacking? or regular meetings? or something that can be layered and mixed to create everything from a winter uniform suitable to Alaska, to a summer uniform suitable for the most challenging Philmont trek, to the most formal awards ceremony based on some common elements?

 

-What does the uniform need to tell us?

 

-What characteristics of the wearer do we want to be most obvious by looking at the uniform?

 

I have read some great ideas from all of these posts. I wish the BSA would refer to this forum when making decesions. WE, the people that are involved with the program on the field level should no doubt be involved with creating a new uniform.

 

Is anyone here involved or associated with the BSA supply Divison?

 

Thoughts..keep'em coming!

 

VentureScoutNY

 

 

[Proud Eagle]

I certainly thank you for the complement. However, the BSA, and the other Scouts and Scouters I have worked with deserve some of the credit.

 

During some planning activities and training sessions I participated in, I learned that a common mistake (I have made it plenty of times) is trying to provide the answer without knowing the question. It is necessary to define the problem before you can determine what the best solution is. This same lesson can also be found in the scientific method if you pay close attention, though that is not a normal component of leadership training. The Army is certainly very big on teaching people to define the problem first.

 

In this case defining the problem is perhaps not the best term to use. It may be better to describe the first step in this process as determining the objective of the uniform in BSA. After we know what the uniform is supposed to do, then we can start defining the characteristics needed to fully fulfill that objective. (It could be argued that creating a separate "wish list" of desirable, but unnecessary, features should be created.)

 

Now I for one am going to take a look at some BSA literature and consider my own personal experiences to try to create an answer to the questions, "what is the objective of the BSA uniform?" and "what characteristics are needed to meet that objective?".

 

If there is continued interest in this topic, and other also are willing to attempt such an evaluation, perhaps we will actually be able to put together some usefull ideas between us.