Callooh! Callay!1428010939 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 "An articulate boy shows me one thing, he's got really good parents who are raising a smart and well-mannered son. Congratulations to them. By far, in my experience, the best and most meaningful EBOR's are conducted for the 17-18 year old scouts." Indeed. Congratulations. But we see through this "articulate" business don't we? We know he's not developmentally ahead in any way pertinent to scouting. No... it's merely that he's "articulate." And that's nothing but a but a superficial illusion created by the unfair fact that his parents have and/or dedicate more time and resources to civilizing, educating, and inculcating good character and habits into their son than do other parents. They're probably Helicopter Parents anyway... hovering and smothering. And what looks like advantage for their son today will turn to ashes in their mouths when life delivers just comeuppance. So we'll protect the boy, either from his Helicopter Parents or from his own overly exuberant Boy Leadership. We'll tilt the scales a little eh? Because we know that what's best for him is for us to find the experience of his EBOR to be like "the best and most meaningful EBORs" which "are for 17-18 year old scouts." The "law of the farm" analogy has some real merit. But if it leads us to tilt the scales toward "unofficial" requirements that suit our own biases, we may be going a little heavier on the manure than the "law of the farm" ought require. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callooh! Callay!1428010939 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 pohsuwed poses a salient question: "Wouldn't "boy led" include the fact that if some boys run with the program faster than others and that we should let them run?" It's a good question about a good learning method. But in Helicopter Scouter vernacular, "boy led" can mean "boy led, my way." "Boy led" can be played as if it were a trump card to buffalo fellow Scouters and parents whom the Scouter would prefer were more deferential to his judgment. "Boy led" can be oblique obloquy on other troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 He has been on over 50 nights of camping, about a quarter backpacks over 5 miles. Yah, so averagin' about 8 weekends a year and two summer camps, includin' a few short backpack treks. That's about what I'd expect from a normally active second-year scout in a decent program. It's not up to da level of an "all-in" scout in a go-getter program at that age, eh? Also not near a typical Eagle. Certainly, though, it's right in line with a FCFY/advancement focus program. Just curious, skeptic, did yeh get into how many of those campouts he planned himself, or led? How many were patrol outings? I expect da troop does a lot of MBs at troop meetings? Was this an LDS unit? I may be wrong, but these boards have at least few conversations about the program being "boy led". It is interesting to find that Beaverrr and Mad Max take the different approach of controlling progression and constraining advancement, putting the control of the program into the pages of some unwritten book. Nope, not controlling or constrainin'. That's all in your imagination. "Boy led" or "Youth Leadership" is a different method of Scoutin' than advancement. It refers to boys leading others, not just themselves. Things like planning their own patrol outings, and leading them; managin' the troop budget as well as their own; being responsible for safety, and goal-setting for the troop, and takin' care of the homesick lad at camp. I applaud the lad for his effort. Any way yeh cut it, even in da most advancement-milled program with pushy parents, gettin' to Eagle at such an age is an achievement. But if I were workin' with da unit, I'd spend a bit of time with 'em on whether they're meetin' their final goals for youth. What's the harvest really look like? For some programs, like LDS, this is really where they want to be, and usin' the program this way fits with their mission. That's fine. In other units, though, they might benefit from a nudge here or there to encourage as much emphasis on da other methods as on advancement. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 Actually, he planned at least a couple, and is a patrol leader now. The unit he is with is one of the most active outdoor troops in the council and is 85 years old. They have as many as 4 summer options, including high adventure as one, either a National base or Sierras, though they have done some in Oregon and Utah. Definitely not a do the merit badge at troop meeting troop, nor LDS. But, it really does not matter. You are making value judgments without any real knowledge of the boy other than what little I have noted. Frankly, I am disappointed in your responses in this thread, as they are really not fair to the scout. I fully understand your opinion on leadership and age, and even concur in many instances, as I have met numbers of the shallow young higher ranking scouts, and they are becoming more common. This one does not appear to be in that category. So, I will refrain from any more discussion on this, as it has become tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Skeptic, As your name implies, you gotta realize hearing of a 12 YO Eagle raises eyebrows, even if short of 13. I'll be honest I can count on one hand the number of under 15yo Eagles I would completely trust with my life in the backwoods if things hit the fan. It wasn't always like that, but in the past 10-15 years, unfortunately that has been the case. Now the ones I could count on my hands in the past 10-15 years, I would trust. One stayed in the troop until his family moved. I want to say he joined a Sea Scout ship after the move. One stayed involved with his troop, a crew, and OA. He just started college, so I don't plan on seeing him around, esp. since he's a walk on for AFROTC. Hopefully he can pull up his PT scores. Big shock when he didn't get an appointment to the academy, and then I talked to him. While grades and leadership were above par, the PT scores were mediocre. A third is still in, but "The Fumes" are starting to get him. Now there is a Life Scout who only needs 1 MB, service project, and EBOR, and not only would I trust him with my life, I trusted him with my son's life when he was a DC. He's 14, and I know why he slowed down a bit on the Trail to Eagle; OA. He's very active with the OA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The unit he is with is one of the most active outdoor troops in the council and is 85 years old. They have as many as 4 summer options, including high adventure as one, either a National base or Sierras, though they have done some in Oregon and Utah. Definitely not a do the merit badge at troop meeting troop, nor LDS. Yah, glad to hear it about da MBs. Personally, I'm never too impressed by activity lists. I've found when yeh just look at activities/activity count, yeh don't really get a clear picture. It's possible with active adults and enough monetary resources to run a lot of activities, but that doesn't really tell yeh anything about what the lads are learning, or how well they're really being challenged. Real depth of youth leadership in a car-campin' troop is better than a lot of highly guided "high adventure". It's also interestin' to note that the young lad's participation in his troop was a bit lower than what I guestimated, given their activity level. Again, I'm not judgin' the lad. I am respondin' to what I would consider a red flag for the program, the program's long-term outcomes for kids, and/or the adults' experience in mentoring bright, articulate young fellows. What you're describin' in terms of the boy's program experience is "average" for an active troop's second year scouts. What you're describin' as the rank outcome for that level of program contact seems out of whack. It's just a red flag, though, not a conclusion. The lad may be special, may have come in with a lot more outdoor and leadership skill because of his family/other activities. As a commish, though, it'd be the sort of thing I'd look to follow up on, to see if it's actually an issue or if it's a mark of da "next thing" that a unit needs to think about in order to improve. As tedious as it can be, there's always a "next thing", eh? That's how we keep improvin'. Good on the lad, though, and thanks for sharin' your perspective. If yeh happen to keep track, I reckon we'd all be curious about what da longer term outcomes look like. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Skeptic, I think that if you provided proof that this Scout was the reincarnation of Lord Baden-Powell himself, that still wouldn't be enough for Beavah. Or to paraphrase a line I once heard a Protestant minister speak, if the Scout walked on water Beavah would probably say, look, the kid can't swim! As for "red flags", I guess everybody has their red-flag-o-meter set a bit differently. If you told me that half the kids in the troop were making Eagle two days before their 13th birthday, I would say that would be a "red flag." The first thing I would want to know is, are those Scouts really passing all the requirements? Assuming the requirements were really being passed, I would still wonder about the troop's program, specifically whether it is so narrowly and single-mindedly focused on the requirements that the Scouts were really missing out on a complete program. But according to Skeptic, that is not the case. Most of the kids making Eagle, he says, are at least 16. In my troop, most Scouts are making Eagle are 17 at the time, and almost all of the rest are 16. (I'm counting the ones who have EBOR's at age 18 as still being 17 because that is when they passed all the other requirements.) So in my troop, one Scout who truly passed the requirements for all ranks and made Eagle two days before his 13th birthday would not be a "red flag" regarding the program. It would be a source of amazement, but it would not be a "red flag." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 with all the older fellows in that troop looking for POR's, how does a 10 year old get one???? Am I mistaken, but doesn't it take 18 months of POR's to have enough to reach Eagle???? So if he joined at 10+ he would need to be 10.5 for his first POR or sooner..... There are exceptions to every rule and stand outs....Just not sure how it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Great! He sounds like he's on his way now to the National Medal for Outdoor Achievement, which requires 125 days/nights of camping (amongst numerous other things), so keep on tracking/recording all the camping he does for the next few years until he's earned it. Then there's the Hornaday Award, the STEM Supernova award, the youth religious award, not to mention palms. In a couple years he should join Venturing and start going for his Venturing silver, Ranger, TRUST, Quest, then join Sea Scouts, earn his Quartermaster and do SEAL training. Don't forget NYTL, the Order of the Arrow, etc. Also, one last very important thing. Your location says that you live in California too. At 15 1/2 years old, he should go get his driver's permit. Sign him up for a driver's ed class at this time (not the high school class, an actual behind the wheel driving class). Then, at 16 he'll be able to go get his license. Getting your eagle before you turn 13 means you're incredibly busy and if he keeps that up, then there's going to be a lot of driving involved. You don't want to be responsible for that. During that first year, until he turns 17, if he's going to be out past 11:00pm, you still have to drive him if he's going to be close or if he's far enough away ("reasonable transportation is not available") then he needs a pre-signed note from you saying what he's doing, when he'll be back home, and listing the dates that he'll be doing that on. Also, as soon as he turns 14 send him to work summer camp, so that he can get paid when he comes back the next summer at 15, so that he can pay for the insurance hike when he gets added to the insurance, and the gas that will be required to take him to activities (and the gas when he starts driving himself at 15 1/2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizon Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Basement - 16 months is the sum of the requirements for POR. - 4 months in a POR while First Class to earn Star. - 6 Months while Star to earn Life. - 6 Months while Life to earn Eagle. So if a Scout bridged over with the AOL at 10.5 years old, that is still 2.5 years / 30 months of Scouting before they turn 13. Certainly possible for a Scout to complete the POR requirements and more in that time frame. If the unit does New Scout Patrols, then he might be the Patrol Leader in his first year, with the time in position counting once he earns First Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Lots of luck and assumptions....While I am not going to hold a boy back.....I wonder if he was elected or appointed patrol leader, was elections held on a regular basis,..... I wonder if his sprint to eagle was at the expense of his patrol mates scouting experience or their need for a POR. Ya know thank god none of my boys are like that....Heck they could careless about advancement. They enjoy being together in the outdoors and smelling the roses or burnt pancakes. I wonder if my 13 year old will make eagle by the time he is 18....he is just having too good a time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizon Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 It really depends on the boy. I had a boy in my Troop, 2 years in, was still Tenderfoot while his buddies were all First Class or above. He had actually done everything, knew the skills, had a ton of merit badges - he just never had his Handbook with him to get signed off, nor did he ask for a SMC and BOR. He caught up fast. My son was Patrol Leader the day he bridged - his buddies in his New Scout Patrol elected him Patrol Leader, and then re-elected him because nobody else wanted (or needed it). During that first year he made it to First Class and almost to Star as I recall (led his Patrol to two consecutive Camporee titles as well). So it wasn't me driving it (I did not join the Troop for 6 months on purpose - I wanted him to go solo first). It wasn't an Advancement mill either. It was just a Scout with the right charisma to lead a gang, like old BP told us to do. Once he had done that, he was quickly picked to be an ASPL by the SPL. He never once had a period without a POR (currently he is a JASM and also Crew Treasurer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Basementdweller, I guess we can all wonder a lot of things about what goes on in other units. And there seems to be a great deal of variation in what information people are looking for and what they assume when they read about a situation in another troop. Maybe more people would post in these forums if more people took their posts at face value rather than putting their own spin on it. I also think that balance is good, in advancement and a lot of other things. I would say that most of the boys in my troop do care about advancement, to varying degrees, but they care about other things as well. In our troop, a "real go-getter" would probably make Eagle at 15, I think that is our "record" in the past 10 years, and I believe he was almost 16. We do have one Life Scout now who seems to have himself on track to make Eagle before he turns 15. He just got back from Philmont and NYLT and really knows his stuff, and takes pride in knowing it and teaching and helping younger kids. Then on the other hand we have a few Life Scouts who would not surprise me if they manage to "experience the advancement method" (as Beavah might put it) for the maximum amount of time available, until a day or three or ten before their 18th birthday. It's part of the kids moving at their own pace -- but so is Skeptic's almost-13-year-old Eagle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Of course I don't know the Lad or the Troop which he belongs to. I don't hold with "Road Blocks" or any sort of minimum age for ranks. The Lad has met the requirements and as such is worthy of all of our congratulations. But... I have to wonder what I might do if I seen that the program I was responsible for offering was this sort of thing? While at one time or another we all have had Lads who set the world on fire and seem to just breeze through requirements. Still I have never had a case where someone so young has reached Eagle Rank at this young age. Why? I'm not exactly sure. Tend to think that I'm to blame as I've never pushed or made a big deal about advancement. - Most of the time we were busy doing other stuff which very well could be tied into meeting requirements but until I was reminded or made see the light I never thought of it that way. Advancement is about recognizing a Lad for a job well done. I see the requirements that lead up to a Lad becoming a First Class Scout as being the key that opens his door to bigger, more exciting and more challenging things. At times the required merit badges get in the way of some Scouts -They hold little or no interest for these Lads. In my book that's OK. Of course there is time for this young Eagle Scout to find things that are a challenge and time for him to master whatever he might want to master, Still most Lads of 12 or 13 do what they do in order to please others and still have to find what it is that they themselves really want to do or really want to get involved in, Eamonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I think a large part of breezing through Tenderfoot through First Class is really paying attention and learning as a Webelos. If you've never known how to tie knots, then it's going to take a few hours to tie the required knots. If you really learned in your Outdoorsman activity badge (required for the Arrow of Light), then you know how to tie a square knot, two half hitches and a taut-line hitch. You're halfway through the knot requirements. If you remember everything from this, then you're probably also on the cusp of the Firem'n Chit, so you'll meet the fire building requirements as well. If First Aid is new to you, then that's going to take a while as well. But if you really paid attention during your Readyman activity badge (also required for the Arrow of Light), then you're going to breeze through all the first aid requirements. If you paid attention from at least Bear through Webelos, then you had knife safety (Whittling Chip) over and over and over. If you remember it all, then you'll know all about a safety circle and how to sharpen a knife, and it really won't be much at all to add in axe and saw, so those requirements will be out of the way fairly swiftly as well. Basically, if you really earned your Arrow of Light, it wouldn't be that difficult to breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a good long day, except for the "earn a sum of money agreed upon by your parents and save half of it" and "test yourself in these physical things, make a fitness plan, then retest in a month and show progress made" and the inviting people to Scouts, showing Scout spirit, and probably one or two others that I'm forgetting now. At that point, it's just merit badges and POR's, so it all depends on how well the kid can understand and how well it's explained. When my niece was five-years old, for instance, she could explain why light diffracts, how that creates colors, and how wavelength and frequency are related, because I'd explained it to her with simple concepts -- it's going to take longer for an ant to push through the hair on my arm than to be dropped on my arm from the same distance, white light is made of all the colors, light travels in waves, different colors of light travel in stronger slower wave or weaker faster waves, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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