Letters of Recommendation

[WmSprague]

An Eagle Candidate in my unit, who is not affiliated with an organized religion and is home schooled, has submitted a Letter of Recommendation list with the same person(s) for three of his reference letters: mom and dad for the parent reference, mom for the religious reference, and dad for the education reference. I was under the opinion all letters were to come from different people. But where is it written that the letters must all come from different persons? The Guide to Advancement 2011 actually seems to validate that more than one letter may come from the same person. Section 9.0.1.3: "3. References: Must list all six (five if not employed). If not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference. If this were acceptable for the parent/religious references it seems reasonable to it would be acceptable for the parent/education references for the same reason.

[shortridge]

As a former homeschooler who was not affiliated with any organized religion during my time in Scouting, I can see the family's conundrum. But I can also see how that would raise some major eyebrows.

 

For the educational reference, has the Scout worked with a tutor on a particular subject? Has he taken music lessons? Attended any classes at the local community college? Taken gymnastics classes? Worked with other families in a local homeschooling group? Participated in a homeschooling writer's workshop program? Unless the family is an entirely self-contained, completely insular educational unit, there are other adults who could potentially provide this type of reference.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Twocubdad]

I like shortridge's approach.

 

But the rules state that in the absence of membership in an organized religion, a reference letter from the parents instead a religious leader is acceptable. Failing shortridges' suggestion, it seems reasonable to apply that to educational references too.

[qwazse]

I knew one boy who submitted a recommendation from his sister. Can't remember if it fulfilled any particular category, but it was a rather nice letter.

 

If you think everyone is being sincere (i.e., the letters collected seem to give the Board of Review and objective perspective of the boy), and you still have references from three other people, I'd take things at face value and move forward.

 

If the boy can get a letter from someone else like Shortridge suggests, that's gravy.

[BadenP]

Remember that letters of recommendation are voluntary and NOT a requirement according to BSA policy.

[eisely]

The official policy at the national level merely requires the eagle candidate to provide names and contact information for five references. The guidance also allows councils to use letters in lieu of other contacts, and that is what we do locally here.

 

I think most people (like 99.99%) would understand that the requirement is for five different references. The boy should be required to come up with more names.

 

I have never had to deal with a home schooled scout, but the ShortRidge's suggestion is sound and reasonable.

 

Surely there are at least a few more people outside his immediate family and scout troop whom this boy knows. What about a neighbor or more distant relative?

[Papadaddy]

Letters are not required, but providing names is. I think it's entirely up to your District/Council Advancement Committee to decide if this is acceptable. I would ask for their guidance prior to having a BOR.

[BadenP]

eisley

You can NOT add to any requirements

 

pappadaddy

 

What names the scout provides is solely up to him, a district EBOR can not demand anything more specific or different from what National has decided.

[bnelon44]

The parent/religous references is explicidly spelled out. That is not the case with the education reference. I don't know how to interpret that.

 

From the new Guide to Advancement

 

9.0.1.3 Complete the Application

...

References: Must list all six (five if not employed).

If not affiliated with an organized religion, then

the parent or guardian provides this reference.

 

...

 

9.0.1.7 References Contacted

Council advancement committee membersor others

designatedcontact the references appearing on the

Eagle Scout application. This may be done by letter,

form, or phone call. For reasons of privacy and

confi dentiality, electronic submissions are discouraged.

It is acceptable to send or deliver to the references an

addressed envelope with instructions, and perhaps a

form to complete. The Scout may assist with this, but that

is the limit of his participation. He is not to be responsible

for follow-through or any other aspect of the process.

It is up to the councils designated representatives to

make every effort to collect the responses. If after a

reasonable effort no response can be obtained from any

references, the board of review must go on without them.

It may not be postponed or denied for this reason, and

the Scout may not be asked to submit additional

references or to provide replacements.

Completed reference responses of any kind are the

property of the council and are confi dential, and only

review-board members and those offi cials with a specifi c

need may see them. The responses are not to be viewed

by, or returned to, the Scout. Doing so could discourage

the submission of negative information. For the same

reason, those providing references shall not be given

the option of waiving confi dentiality. Once a review has

been held, or an appeal process conducted, responses

shall be returned to the council, where they will be

destroyed after the Eagle Scout credentials are released

or the appeal is concluded.

 

...

 

In Boy Scouting, advancement references

are required only for Eagle Scout rank.

The council determines methods of contact.

 

Page 51

 

 

[eisely]

BadenP,

 

How am I suggesting an addition to requirements?

[BadenP]

eisley

 

"the requirement is for five names. I think they should be required to submit more."

 

Quoting your own post. Look we make eagle candididates jump through a ridiculous amount of extra hurdles for that badge after they have completed all the rank, MB, POR requirements, and Eagle project. Then there are some districts do require not only letters of recommendation but from specific sources outside what is detailed by the BSA. The biggest joke is that in most councils no one from the council ever contacts any of the references, this I know from my time as a professional scouter and talking with pros from other councils, as one SE put it to me "It is just not a cost effective use of a council employees time."

 

So put all the extra bells and whistles you want on these poor kids but it really is of no significance or value to the council or National.

[sailingpj]

BadenP,

 

Where are you getting that quote from? Not counting where you wrote them, those words do not appear in that order anywhere on this page.

 

eisely actually said:

 

"I think most people (like 99.99%) would understand that the requirement is for five different references. The boy should be required to come up with more names. "

 

I took that to mean that he thinks the boy in question should be required to use more than just his two parents for all five references.

[eisely]

silingpj has interpreted my post correctly. While tbe parents count as one of the references in the role as parents, for the parents to act as references for the educational and religious roles makes the whole process even less meaningful.

[WmSprague]

As always the opinions, comments, and different points of view are very much appreciated. The wealth of knowledge and experience from members of this forum is without question. I have submitted this situation to my District Advancement Chair and District Executive. I have not yet received an official reply. It is my impression they have kicked this up to Council. This is a copy of my latest letter to them.

 

We are anxious to move forward on this. Unless I hear otherwise from District, Council, or National, I am going to process the letters as presented. The Eagle requirement is for the Scout to provide a list of names. The Scout did that so it appears the Scout satisfied that requirement. I don't want to be surprised at Council when I attempt to certify the Eagle application. That is not the time to find out he needs a list and letters of five different people. If the Scout needs five different names than I need to know that now.

 

Eagle Requirement 2 from Boy Scout Requirements 2011: "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references."

 

Now that I look closer at this requirement, where does it say he needs five references? It looks like a Scout needs only three, four if employed. It is the Eagle Application is where it is implied that five references, six if employed, are required. So why is this not spelled out in the Eagle requirement? I have yet to meet a Life Scout who has read the Eagle Application prior to his Eagle Scoutmaster Conference.

 

I will keep this forum informed of any developments.

 

[eisely]

I cannot give you a citation where the number five comes from, but it is somewhere in the language. The language you cite is not limiting, but only states that the references must INCLUDE the following. When scouts and adults have asked me this question I sometimes tell them that two educational references may be submitted to get to the total. I also tell them that other references can be almost anybody; neighbors, adult friends, more distant relatives etc. I did let one reference from a teen age sister go through, just because I thought that any boy who can get any kind word from a teen age sibling deserves recognition for that alone!!