Summer Camp MB mill - as usual

[BadenP]

dkurt

 

Yea, let all the scout leaders just sit back and accept the fact they can do nothing as we watch the boy scout program continue to be dumbed down, and membership continue to drop, and the quality of the value of scouting continues to diminish in the publics eye.

 

Why not do the same thing in college, like medical school, so the next time you need an operation you have a surgeon who barely knows the basics cutting you open. The truth is if scout leaders who really love scouting sit idly by and allow substandard programs and requirements continue to become more prevalent in the BSA producing substandard scouts then we might as well close down the whole show right now. Instead we need scout leaders who are real LEADERS demand high quality and the very best from their boys, their camps, their councils, and most importantly from those bozo's at National who have really lost the path and vision of what the BSA is supposed to be all about.

[dkurtenbach]

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

You can demand all you want from your camp, district, council, and BSA. That doesn't mean you can effect change in your camp, district, council, and BSA. You need something else. To effect change, you need (a) to have or be able to create conditions in which the change you want is both possible and likely to be successful, and (b) you need the leverage to permanently move the powers that be. Calling the powers that be "bozos" probably won't help effect change. (But I would suggest that, if you have accepted that you can't change them, concluding that they are "bozos" probably helps to achieve serenity.)

 

In any case, the whole point of Scouting is to change _boys_. Coincidentally, it is in our units where most of us have the actual ability to exercise leadership, to effect change, and to "demand high quality and the very best." The unit's year-'round program is where the rubber meets the road, where we can counteract the dumbing down of the program, where we can build membership, and where we can show the public the value of Scouting.

 

If you can't stomach the solution I suggested, jtewestark offered other practical alternatives: "Dont like [the standard summer camp program], dont participate. Roll your own camp, many units do that every year. Or keep looking for that perfect camp that is going to meet every expectation you want met. Good luck."

[TAHAWK]

"I dont understand what you mean by expediency is a value. Theres only so many hours, so many dollars, so many resources to do so much and to some its still not enough. I cant go along with that perspective. Boys are constantly growing through the process every year, every week, as ugly as it may be.

 

If you want perfection, youre not going to find it. Dont like it, dont participate. Roll your own camp, many units do that every year. Or keep looking for that perfect camp that is going to meet every expectation you want met. Good luck."

 

I do not accept that the choice is between cheating and perfection. I believe that is a false dichotomy.

 

The decision to offer MB's that are not, or cannot be, adequately staffed is a decision - not an act of God.

 

This is like buying food for 20, inviting 100, and saying to those served tiny percentages of the portion -- or none at all, "What do you expect. I can only afford full portions for 20."

 

 

[jtswestark]

BP

First of all, threatening to boycott camps will do nothing to cause change. Action will. Actually boycotting camps will do one thing = make them close. Getting involved by participating in making them better, will make them better.

 

Second of all, Im not a good enough student of history to know what the real intention of summer camp was whenever it started, at Brownsea I presume I thought it was for growth of the boy and patrols. Honestly, I got more out of my patrol and troop events than I ever did MBs. That said, Im not in anyway going to defend the five to ten MBs in one week at any camp. Ive seen kids on very rare occasions take four in my troop and they were very prepared older Scouts who all later regretted taking that many. My guys knew I didnt even like them taking three and only allowed it in very specific conditions. I cant speak for other troops or camps as I dont know what they permit. And I really question any anecdotal story about a Scout earning more than 6 MBs in any given week, maybe it happens, but I fully expect theres more to the story than just that. I dont know what your camp experience is and will not attempt to rebut it, but my experiences arent nearly as loose as you present. The sky is not falling.

 

The growing camps are or have already added the rappelling, COPE, and pioneering areas and if you havent seen them then you need to maybe look further because theres plenty out there.

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

[BadenP]

dkurt

 

Your fall back and play dead attitude is not very practical or realistic. In our council at least if they tried to pull something similiar there would be a massive crowd of scouters at the next board meeting demanding change. Yet our SE is a smart man, his predecessor was not and got booted out, he knows what makes his scouters/scout families happy, the FOS exceeding goal each year, and the popcorn sale a success every year. This council I am sure is the exception but the SE and the board always listen to our requests, ideas and concerns and do all they can to make them happen or corrected. As the COR for my crew I am always at every board meeting and they truly are concerned to know whats happening in the field. Our council camp is very well developed with a wide range of experiences for every level of scouting, and always has a long waiting list every summer. So yes you can get your council to listen if you make the effort unfortunately in many councils most scouters would rather complain than make the effort, sound familiar dkurt?

[dkurtenbach]

TAHAWK wrote: "The decision to offer MB's that are not, or cannot be, adequately staffed is a decision - not an act of God."

 

That statement presumes that the decision-maker knows that the merit badges are not or cannot be adequately staffed.

 

But who is the decision-maker? And whose opinion matters concerning whether a merit badge is adequately staffed? The Area Director who believes that the staff members teaching the badge don't know the subject matter of a particular merit badge well enough? Her boss, the Program Director, who has 50 Scouts signed up for that badge and nowhere else to send them because all the other program areas have no room? The Scout Executive, who doesn't want to get 50 complaint letters because a merit badge was cancelled? The Chairman of the Council Advancement Committee, who knows the the standards inside and out and believes that the existing camp staff can adequately deliver the merit badge?

 

Since the Scoutmaster controls the troop's advancement program, and can refuse to allow the Scouts in his troop to take a particular merit badge offered by the camp, perhaps he is the decision-maker.

 

[dkurtenbach]

denP, we know what happens when we ass_u_me. Ask my Council's Camping Director and Camping Chairman, the last couple of Deputy Scout Executives in my Council, and the current Central Region chief about my "fall back and play dead attitude." LOL.

 

This topic offers interconnected issues at all levels, from whether National has the right idea about what summer camps should be doing all the way down to whether a 15-year-old first year camp staffer should be entrusted with teaching Environment Science. Some problems can be fixed on site with a word to the Program Director or the Camp Commissioner. A few weeks back I sent an email that got some Council folks working on a dining hall problem. I'll be working on some interesting things with the Council Camping Committee this fall. As perhaps one of the few CORs who actually does the COR job as intended, you're effective at the Council level.

 

Which all goes to my point: Work on the things you have the power to affect, and don't get worked up about the ones you don't -- work around them.

[Troop22]

I have also seen camps just go through the motions of the classes and sign off on Blue Cards. This year we attended a camp out of our council that truly impressed me with their MB classes and First year Scout program. As always I observed several of the classes and was impressed. They followed all reqiurements to a "T" and even handed out tests to take.

Mid week all the MB councelers meet with the Scoutmasters and had notes on each Scouts progress and gave reports on participation.

The Scouts had a great time and actually learned the MB's taken. I am sure we will go back there.

 

[shortridge]

TAHAWK wrote:

 

The decision to offer MB's that are not, or cannot be, adequately staffed is a decision - not an act of God.

This is like buying food for 20, inviting 100, and saying to those served tiny percentages of the portion -- or none at all, "What do you expect. I can only afford full portions for 20."

 

So, from a practical standpoint, what does a CD or PD do who is confronted with just such a situation? Let's say there are 20 Scouts signed up for a badge that can really only take 10. The council office allowed Scouts to enroll long before the camp director had any idea about the resources and staffing he had available. Do you cut Scouts, making them, their parents and leaders upset? Or do you move staff around, cutting the resources availble in another program area and potentially using an unqualified instructor for the recipient area?

 

Even if limits are set from the get-go, Scouts and Scouters - from my staff experience - almost always try to push the envelope and make "room for one more." There isn't always room.

[TAHAWK]

The council decides what resources to allocate to camp staff. It's the council buying food for 20 and inviting 100. The problem starts there and the responsibility is there. All councils are supposed to follow the mandatory requirements set out in BSA advancement policies, which include, without exception, individual testing by adults merit badge counselors. No council is entitled to change that. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

Of course, there is no practical way to take this up with BSA since they do not share their mailing address, telephone number, or mail address with mere volunteers.

[shortridge]

"Of course, there is no practical way to take this up with BSA since they do not share their mailing address, telephone number, or mail address with mere volunteers."

 

TAHAWK, that's just false, and I suspect you know that.

 

National's mailing address is printed on the back of the Boy Scout Handbook, even inside the front cover of the Wilderness Survival MBP you dislike so strongly.

 

You can get the phone number by calling information or doing a simple Google search. I imagine it's not printed on the books to deter parents and Scouts calling with simple questions that should be directed to Scoutmasters or councils. (National isn't an information clearinghouse.)

 

For general reference, it's 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038, phone 972-580-2000.

 

National can be legitimately criticized on a number of fronts, but not about hiding their address.

[jtswestark]

All councils are supposed to follow the mandatory requirements set out in BSA advancement policies, which include, without exception, individual testing by adults merit badge counselors. No council is entitled to change that.

Ahhh, I get it now. Let me summarize the complaint you've been trying to make through this whole thread, Tahawk you expect there to be an expert adult counselor for every merit badge at Scout Camps.

 

So does that mean that you arent going to accept anymore signed blue cards from any Scout camp by anyone involved with teaching or testing that is under 18 and not an expert in the area. Because to do otherwise is granting your approval of cheating. Correct?

 

[shortridge]

The rules do indeed say that. There's even a statement from National that explicitly lays out the rules for summer camp counselors:

 

Summer Camp Merit Badge Counselors

The same qualifications and rules for apply to counselors for council summer camp merit badge programs. All counselors must be 18 years or older, but qualified camp staff members under age 18 may assist the merit badge counselor with instruction. (These assistants are not qualified to sign off on a Scout's blue card nor may they certify the Scout's completion of a merit badge.) As always, each counselor must maintain the exact standards as outlined in the merit badge requirementsnothing deleted, nothing added.

(http://scouting.org/Training/Adult/Supplemental/MeritBadgeCounselorInstructorsGuide.aspx)

 

Camps around the country violate this rule annually. I signed off on my first blue cards at age 13.5, as an unpaid counselor-in-training. Totally against the rules and utterly wrong, but I didn't know any better, and the camp turned a blind eye. And you know what? Not a single one of the Scoutmasters - who presumably are familiar with the qualifications for MB counselors - ever said a word in complaint that a pimply twerp of a kid was signing off on Indian Lore and Basketry for their Scouts.

 

From a practical point of view - I'm a pretty practical person - most of our camps would need to double or triple their salaries and dramatically improve their staff living quarters to attract fully qualified adult counselors. Most people simply can't afford to take that kind of a job. That isn't going to happen at most camps around the country. So until there's a massive influx of cash to your council, expect teenagers to still be teaching these badges.

 

This is not a slam on teenage staffers. I was a pretty darn good Pioneering and Wilderness Survival instructor from age 15 to 18. But far too many of them are being thrown into roles that they're not qualified for and lack the resources and training to properly instruct. It's unfair to both the campers and the staffers.

 

Again, I ask: What can a conscientious CD or PD do? Announce that programs are canceled, or half the class is going to get kicked out, because staffing levels aren't high enough? What kind of backlash do you think he or she would get?

[Twocubdad]

And there is a fairly good chance that if enough SMs push the point, national will simply change the rule to exempt summer camp from MBC requirements. As is, out camp plays the game that the over-18 area director is the MBC of record, despite the Scout eaning a MB may never have any contact at all with the AD.

 

So here's an idea: if your camp play fast and loose with the rules, you should too. Namely the rule that says a signed blue card is a done deal and a SM cannot question it. If the card is signed by a 15-y.o. counselor, you've got a pretty good argument that the card isn't valid anyway.

[jtswestark]

Again, only speaking for my own experiences at my past Councils camp, Ive only seen the staff directors sign off on cards who have to be over 18, most are over 21 in fact. Not saying it never has happened, but it is something they were aware of and had a policy in place for over the past 10 years or so.

 

The teaching staffer (typically are 16 to 18, yes) does keep a checklist of requirements completed which hangs in the Scoutmasters lounge.