When do you take the scouts word?

[shrubber]

I suspect I know what the replies might be, but our SM insists that our younger scouts be seen teaching someone how to tie a square knot using the EDGE method, rather than teaching a neighbor or a friend and reporting back. Thoughts?

[dg98adams]

IMO,

 

This is an easy one... Scouts are always taken at their WORD.

 

Tenderfoot Requirement

4c.Using the EDGE method teach another person how to tie the square knot.

** there is nothing about in front of a SM/ASM.....

 

 

If you were talking to a Scout who tells you that he taught a neighbor how to "tie a square knot" using the EDGE method, and wants you to sign his book. I would say "I'd be glad to"... and while he's standing there while you "fish for your pen" you could say, "EDGE method", now what is that again?

 

If he can't remember what the acronym stands for and just explains what how he did it, that would be more than good enough. If he's a little loose on the explanation, you could ask him to "show me what you did"... without making a big deal of it.

 

Now, if anywhere in this mom/dad is wanting the book signed holding it out and is the one asking me instead of the Scout ... I'm not gonna be "fishing for my pen" until the Scout comes to talk to me with his book.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Remember, there are 4 steps in Boy Scout advancement - learning, testing, reviewing, and recognition.

 

Here is what the BSA Advancement Committee Policies, and Procedures book states about the testing step -

 

"A Scout may be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member, or a member of his troop. The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates."

 

 

So, no, a SM does NOT have to simply take the Scouts word that he has completed a requirement, any requirement. It has nothing to do with how trustworthy a Scout is, and everything to do with following the second step, testing, in Boy Scout advancement.

 

While dg98adams did accurately quote the requirement, he left off one very important word at the beginning of Tenderfoot requirement #4 - DEMONSTRATE.

 

In requirement #4, a Scout is required to demonstrate 3 different things. One of those is "Using the EDGE method, teach another person how to tie the square knot."

 

It states demonstrate, not describe.

 

An we all know - "No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

 

If the SM approves a parent to be qualified to test, and approve this requirement, then I would have no problem with a Scout demonstrating this at home with a neighbor, or friend.

 

[shrubber]

I don't think he left anything off....

The requirement reads

4.

a.Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

b.Demonstrate that you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

c.Using the EDGE method teach another person how to tie the square knot.

 

I read that just as it's written,no?

Demonstrate whipping...

Demonstrate how to tie

Teach somebody...

It does not say demonstrate you can teach, does it?

 

 

[shortridge]

"Hey, that's great! Can you do me a favor tonight, Johnny, and go help Andre with his square knot? He was having a little trouble last week. Also, why don't you invite your neighbor on the hike this weekend? Thanks!"

[ScoutNut]

Shortridge's way is the way to go.

 

As to how, exactly the requirement is written, I do not have a copy of the current Boy Scout Handbook (son's is pre-EDGE requirement), or the current 2010 Boy Scout Requirements book.

 

However, the requirement, as shown on the BSA National Web site, is -

 

4. Demonstrate

 

* 4a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

* 4b. Demonstrate that you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

* 4c. Using the EDGE method, teach another person how to tie the square knot.

 

 

Can anyone verify if either the current Boy Scout Handbook, or the 2010 Boy Scout Requirements book, does NOT have the word "Demonstrate" at the beginning of requirement number 4?

 

 

 

[shrubber]

The handbook does not....

Each requirement is seperate.

There is no 4 Demonstrate

 

It reads

4a.Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

4b.Demonstrate that you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

4c.Using the EDGE method teach another person how to tie the square knot.

 

(This message has been edited by shrubber)

[ScoutNut]

I would not say that your SM is definitely wrong in how he is going about it.

 

In order to properly "test" this requirement, if done outside of the Troop, I would still say that Shortridge's method is the best one to use.

 

Having a Scout describe what he did, would be my next choice.

 

Simply accepting a Scout at his word with no testing at all would not be an option for me.

 

[shrubber]

Scoutnut...

Do you think it's necessary to test all rank advancement?

How would you test... Earn an amount of money agreed upon by you and your parent, then save at least 50 percent of that money.

 

Demand to see it? Count it on the table in front of them?

(This message has been edited by shrubber)

[CalicoPenn]

The question in the title of the thread is "When do you take the scouts word?"

 

The answer is a rather simple 4 words:

 

A Scout is Trustworthy

 

I think those four words answers the question and says it all.

[Twocubdad]

Trust but verify.

 

EDGE--

"So who did you teach?"

"What skill did you teach?"

"What does EDGE stand for?"

"What does it mean to 'enable'?"

"Give me the nickel version of how you taught the skill."

 

Earn/Save money

"How much money did you earn?"

"How much did yo save?"

"What did you do to earn the money?"

"What do you plan to do with the money you saved?"

"What did you do with the rest?"

 

 

It really isn't a big deal nor does it need to be. If you can't figure out within a few simple, friendly questions whether or not the Scout actually completed the requirement, you're in the wrong job.

[DeanRx]

I say you trust them until such time they give you a reason not to. If not, you will not earn the subject's respect. You fail to call them on it when you have a reason not to trust and you will loose the respect of the rest of the group.

 

As for if / when you test the advancement requirement(s), thats up to you. Its been a LONG time since I was a lad in the program, but I thought this is what the SM conference and BOR was? If the scout says he can do something or has done something, then take him at his word. If by demonstration or by questioning at the SM conference or BOR it is appearent that he in fact does not have a good grasp of one the the requirements, then send him back to the Troop and tell him you'll revisit the rank when he's ready for it.

 

Prior to the SM conference or BOR its all just window dressing / rehersal anyways. When you get to the board, then it counts.

[evmori]

Using the EDGE method teach another person how to tie the square knot.

 

To me, the key is the requirement says another person, not another Scout. This person could be mom or dad or his best friend at church or another kid at the school bus stop or the clerk at the convenience store or another Scout in his unit.

 

And a Scout is always taken at his word.

[Beavah]

Yah, what ScoutNut said, eh?

 

The Rules & Regulations have relatively little on advancement, but they do specify the four steps required for a boy to advance: learning, testing, reviewing, and recognition.

 

I think these days what happens in a lot of troops is that they forget or shortchange the "learning" step and jump right to testing. As a result, they teach lads to cram for the test (or just go off and teach a neighbor once), rather than actually learning how to do something.

 

The point of da requirement isn't to teach someone a square knot once, eh? That would just be silly.

 

The point of the requirement is to learn how to teach someone else a simple skill using EDGE. It's there to get the lad started on what will be his responsibility to teach patrol-mates and younger scouts skills down the road.

 

It might take teaching a half-dozen people in different settings how to tie a knot before the lad really figures out how to use EDGE (or something else) to teach someone a simple skill. That's the learning step of advancement. He should keep doing it until he gets proficient - until he becomes confident and successful in his ability to teach someone a simple skill like tying a knot. Might take a month or two and a lot of practice.

 

After that he gets tested, by whomever the SM designates to do that type of test. I'd say for teaching someone to tie a knot, as a test I would have the lad teach someone how to tie a knot! Not talk to him about what he did to fulfill the requirement. That's the review step, eh?

 

The BSA advancement program depends on doin' all four steps. Don't sabotage it by skipping the "learning" step, or by mixing up the "review" and "testing" steps.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

There was an adage passed around here quite a bit a while back

 

Trust but verify

 

Remember?