New Requirements Question

[CNYScouter]

There are new requirements for Boy Scout ranks that take effect on Jan. 1, 2010.

There has been some confusion is our District over when a Scout starts the new requirements

 

In this months Scouting magazine it says:

 

Note: If a Boy Scout is working out of the old edition of the handbook, he may continue using those requirements until he completes that rank. Then he must move to the new edition.

 

I dont have a copy of the new BS handbook does it state this in there also?

Is this statement anywhere on www.scouting.org ?

 

Also is there anytime limit to how long a Scout can work with the old requirements?

We had a Council Commissioner tell us that a Scout had until Dec. 31, 2010 to work on the old requirements and they then must switch to the new requirements.

 

Does anyone have a link that shows this?

 

The reason I am asking is that we have a unit leader who is insisting that someone at our council office told him something different than the above and we want to get the correct information out to all our units.

 

[Oak Tree]

I would take the Scouting magazine statement as an official documentation of the policy. It's something written that comes out of National. It's even probably on the web somewhere under scoutingmagazine.com.

 

In practice, other than for Eagle, it seems to me that a troop could use whatever interpretation it wanted.

[Twocubdad]

Yeah, it's not like you're going to get dinged on your quarterly advancement audit.

 

Just be consistent.

[Buffalo Skipper]

In the past (going back to when I was a scout in the 70s), any requirements change could be deferred IF the scout was working on the rank (or Merit Badge). So a First Class scout on December 31 could earn Star with either (all) the old OR (all) the new requirements; one could not mix and match.

 

I believe there is a blanket statement in the Advancement Committee Guidebook to this effect, which is in line with what you have quoted from Scouting Magazine. I do not have my ACG with me today as my personal scout office/file cabinet (car) is in the shop, so I can't confirm that. Again, this is the way it has been for decades.

[DeadSkunk]

My unit has boys at Tenderfoot who have many 2nd Class and 1st Class requirments complete. Would the January 1, 2010 deadline mean they should continue with he old 2nd class requirments but use the new for 1st class? Or can they work out of the old book for both since they are both "started"? I'd hate to have to ask them all to buy another book so soon.

[Eagle92]

Dead,

Welcome to the forum. In reference to the Tenderfeet in your troop, it's my understanding from when BSA has doen this before that, that one the next rank is valid, i.e. Tenderfoot Scouts can contuine to use the old Second Class requirements, but must use the new requirements thereafter.

 

Trust me it's a pain, scouts in the situation hate having to deal with the stuff (trust me on that one ) but it's a fact of life that life ain't fair at times.

 

Just be thankful that they aren't Star Scouts or Life Scouts.

[kenk]

On page 443 of the new Handbook (under the Eagle Palm Rank Requirements) it says:

 

"The rank requirements in this book are official as of January 1, 2010. If a Scout has started work toward a rank before that date using requirements that were current before January 1, 2010, he may complete that rank only using the old requirements. Any progress toward a rank that is begun after January 1, 2010, must use the requirements as they are presented in this Handbook or in the Boy Scout Requirements book."

[moxieman]

CNYScouter asked:

"I dont have a copy of the new BS handbook does it state this in there also?

Is this statement anywhere on www.scouting.org?"

 

Answer to Q1: Yes. You should probably go get a copy of the new handbook. It's states this on page 443 just below the Eagle Palm Requirements. Personally, they should state it sooner rather than at the end of the requirements section.

 

In the meantime, you can download the new requirements as PDF's from the handbook website: http://www.bsahandbook.org

 

Click on Table of Contents and then Rank Requirements. You can then click on the rank you want the requirements for.

 

The website also has videos the scouts can review to help them with T-S-F requirements.

 

I can't answer Q2: Maybe. The national website is a pain to navigate. I've found a list of the changes, but no clause about how long one can use the old requirements.

 

Answer to Q3: There is nothing in the handbook that states there's a time limit--just that the scout can only work on whatever rank he's currently working on--see Page 443 of the handbook when you get one. What you quoted out of Scouting Magazine is the same. I don't know where your commish got his info. Ask him to provide the written source.(This message has been edited by moxieman)

[kenk]

Even though all of the Tenderfoot/Second Class/First Class requirements can be worked on simultaneously, I think it is pretty clear that the intent is for the Scout to complete the "next" rank (as of 1/1/2010) under the current requirements, and then all of the remaining ranks would require completion under the new requirements.

[NJCubScouter]

Interesting. What does it mean to have "started work toward a rank"? Does it mean having done ANY of the requirements toward that rank? So, a Tenderfoot who has earned one merit badge would have "started" working on Star and therefore does not need to do the new requirements for Star, even if he makes Second Class after 1/1/2010? I don't think so. (And actually this is only a theoretical question since there actually are no new requirements for Star.) To make it even more ridiculous, it would mean that a Tenderfoot who has earned at least three non-required MB's has "started" working on Life, because the third non-required MB won't "count" toward a rank until Life.

 

But I don't think that is what they meant. They probably mean, if you have a BOR before 1/1/2010, your NEXT rank can still be done under the old requirements, but not the one after that. This could be a little unfair in some cases. We have a lot of boys who, when they pass their Second Class BOR, have a majority, or almost all, of their First Class requirements completed. But it's really not a huge deal since there are only two new requirements for First Class, and they don't look that onerous. And no requirements have been deleted, for any rank. It is not like when I was in the Boy Scouts and they completely changed all the rank requirements, going from a system very similar to what exists now (specific requirements for each rank, from many different subjects) to one where you had to earn Skill Awards and even Merit Badges for the lower ranks. In that case it was much more important to have a clear transition.

 

To make things even more complicated, on my last visit to council, I got a packet about the new rank requirements and it says "The (name of council) Advancement Committee has passed the following policy "A boy who has not completed a Scoutmaster Conference under the old requirements by 4/1/2010 must use the 2010 requirements for all ranks"". If I read this correctly, together with what the new handbook says, it means that a Scout who has a BOR before 1/1/2010 uses the old requirements for the next rank, BUT only if he has his SM conference before April 1. Now, this is interesting because some people in this forum think you can have an SM conference for a rank before completing all the other requirements for that rank, so it would be easy to "game" this requirement. However, the assumption in my council seems to be that the SM conference is the last requirement that is passed. Otherwise, making the SM conference the cutoff wouldn't make any sense. It may not make sense as it is, since the BOR date is the "date of rank" for every other purpose. But they probably just want to give a break to kids in troops that may have BOR's on some periodic basis such as monthly or even less often, rather than on an as-needed basis.

[skeptic]

And really, why are any of these new requirements such an issue anyway. It is not like they are anything new particularly. A 2nd class must earn some money and save half is about the most difficult, and that is not overwhelming either. Explaining how you live up to 4 of the laws is really nothing more than having to be aware of what they are to start with. And teaching a skill using EDGE is pretty basic too. If a boy cannot cope with these, then we are doing something wrong.

 

JMHO

[kenk]

As the Advancement Coordinator for my son's troop my only concern with the new requirements is how we'll track exactly which Scout Laws are "used" when completing the Tenderfoot through First Class Scout Spirit requirements.

 

Almost certainly I'll ask the SM to write the Laws used into the handbook (wish they'd have given dedicated spaces for it) in the sign-off boxes (there's a fair amount of room there).

 

BUT, I wonder if there will be an expectation that I capture those in our TroopMaster database - just in case a Scout looses his Handbook.

 

Ken K.

[Oak Tree]

The Troopmaster company is pretty responsive to customer requests. So Ken, if you want there to be a place to track those, I'm sure they would consider providing it. It wouldn't be too much work on their part. They are going to have to make updates for the new requirements anyway.

 

Buffalo Skipper, I looked through my copy of the ACP&P (2002 printing) and I couldn't find any blanket statement on what happens when requirements change.

[Eagle92]

Oak

You may have to look at BSA precedent on this matter, i.e. 1972/73, 1979/80, 1992/93 (the addition of Family ALMOST got me) etc.

[NJCubScouter]

You may have to look at BSA precedent on this matter, i.e. 1972/73, 1979/80, 1992/93 (the addition of Family ALMOST got me) etc.

 

One problem with that is that they seem to do it slightly differently every time, which actually makes some sense when you look at the nature of the changes. In the first two changes you mention, it wasn't just a matter of adding or subtracting or re-wording requirements, but really changing to a completely different advancement system. (From a "list-based" system to a skill awards and merit badge based system for the lower ranks, and back again, plus major changes in the required list in 72-73.) I remember that in what must have been 1972, while the younger kids in the troop were working on Skill Awards, I was still learning semaphore (one of the phased-out requirements) for First Class, so it really made a difference. This time they are just adding a few requirements here and there.

 

Another factor is TroopMaster. I have never used it myself, but I have a feeling that it may look at the dates-of-rank and determine whether a Scout needed to fulfill a particular requirement. When my son's advancement reports were printed out before his Eagle BOR, I noticed that the requirements that were adopted for certain ranks after he made that rank (such as "invite a friend to a meeting" and "explain the 3 R's") had "N/A" next to them, rather than a blank or a date. So it may be that TroopMaster (once it is updated for the new requirements) will be programmed to send up a red flag if it thinks a Scout should have fulfilled a requirement and he hasn't. Maybe someone who knows how the program actually works can answer that question.