Signing off on Advancment

[Stosh 3452]

Being boy-led, our PL's sign off on their patrol member's advancement.

 

One boy requested a POR and with Webelos cross-over at hand, asked if he could be PL and recruit a new patrol using the Webelos boys and their friends that may not have been in scouting. I thought it was a good idea.

 

Well, he did absolutely nothing. But he was collecting POR for his own advancement and when his time was up the SPL signed him off on advancement. The SPL signs off on all PL advancement. The SM signs off on the SPL advancement.

 

During the SM conference a discussion on this issue came up, of course. Well, the book was signed.

 

What's the next step?

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Step 1

A serious scoutmaster conference with the SPL on what constitutes adequately fulfilling the POR of Patrol Leader. Review the trainig the SPL was given concerning the evaluation of a Patrol Leaders performance, should it be revised, rewritten?

 

Step 2

I would also look at the quality control devices, was the Patrol Leader evaluated at 1 month, 2 months, 3 et al? What can be done to assure such a thing never happens again? How are adults alerted to a poor performace of a POR before the term is up? Should that process change?

 

Step 3

A serious discussion with the Patrol Leader himself. Ask him to give an honest appraisal of his leadership, with examples. He would have had to been a PL for at least 4 months if First Class to Star, six months for the others. Ask him what should be done, perhaps after reviewing the Scout Oath and Law

 

Whatever you do, there are two issues, the poor performance of both SPL and PL and the same effort should be taken on both issues.

[gcnphkr 11]

You might consider that maybe you've delegated too much to the SPL in this case. At minimum you should have been having discussions with him on this over the last several months and had him take appropriate action.

 

I always ask the scout if they think they have earned it. Very rarely do I have one not own up to not doing their job and accepting that they do not deserve the credit. I think OGE's advice is on target.

[eghiglie 10]

This has come up before and its a very tricky problem. Sadly the book is signed and that carries a lot of weight. Anything done to erase the signature will cause other problems. We had something similar happen a number of years ago, and the result was the boy kept the item signed off. However, it took him a little longer than expected to earn the initials for scout spirit.

 

Good luck.

 

In our troop signatures for star and life can only come from the SM staff. Eagle init's are only from the SM.

 

[eisely 13]

I agree that OGE is on point.

 

As a general principle, signing off for rank requirements can and should be delegated to youth leadership. For POR requirements, I am not sure that this should be delegated. At a minimum, if the SPL is going to do the signing, clear expectations need to be established and the SPL needs to be trained in how to implement those as part of his performance.

 

Depending in part on the size of the troop, it may not be feasible for the SM to observe and evaluate performance in every nominal POR, so delegation for some of the appointive positions would likely be appropriate. However, the elective positions are another matter.

 

Here's a thought: While the members of a patrol cannot sign the book, how about attempting some kind of upward evaluation?

[shortridge 184]

What does "absolutely nothing" mean? Did the patrol not exist? Or did he manage to recruit new members and the new Webelos, and then just did nothing to lead his patrol?

[Stosh 3452]

He didn't make any effort to recruit, talk, interact, call, any of the Webelos boys eligible to cross-over.

 

I would have kinda expected him to at least make a token effort, but I can't even say that much.

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC 311]

He didn't make any effort to recruit, talk, interact, call, any of the Webelos boys eligible to cross-over.

 

Who trained him to recruit? Recruiting has skillsets in public speaking and in sales. Part of mentorship is to ensure the youth receives that training.

 

I'm with eisely that evaluation of POR is a Scoutmaster in Nature obligation. It's part of the same mentorship that has the SM doing conferences, assigning youth merit badge counselors...

 

The SM is mentor to all in a broad way, and mentor to youth leadership in a very specific way. It's his joy to interact with the youth. Anything that detracts from that statement should be avoided.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Stosh 3452]

I don't expect my boys to pull leadership out of the air. They are given numerous SM conferences that allow the boys to receive suggestions, ideas, and opportunities. If they need help or what to try something off the wall, the SM backs them 100% even if it won't work. (Hey, sometimes hair-brained ideas DO work!)

 

After 3 months of prodding, the other patrol organized an open house, put together a program, went over to the Den meeting and had a great time with the boys which then came to join up with that patrol. That patrol was large and had to split and the NSP picked someone other than the designated PL who hadn't done anything.

 

He knew the other patrol would have worked with him to get the recruiting done, but when they invited him in on the process he told them it wouldn't be necessary.

 

Boys today know that if they stand around with their hands in their pockets and something has to be done if given enough time, an adult will step in and take over. With a boy-led program, the other boys stepped in to help and ended up taking over because the boy wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets. I can only offer opportunities, I can't make the boys take hold of them.

 

Now he's faced with having to explain this all to the Life BOR next week. (No this is not a young boy that doesn't know how the system works, he's just not interested in doing the work.) It's not the end of the world and he's still young. There will be more opportunity, but quick signing off for a no-show job isn't going to endear him to the BOR's and that's a lesson he'll be getting next week. And yes, the boy's father is aware of the situation and doesn't have a problem with how it's being handled.

 

Stosh

[Mike F 10]

Stosh,

 

It sounds to me like he intended to recruit and lead a patrol, but he had no patrol members. If no patrol members, he was not a Patrol Leader. The signature in his book giving him credit is invalid.

 

This isn't being mean or unfair. It's in the boy's best interest to experience the growth of his first successful leadership/responsibility experience.

 

Work with him and help him find a path forward.

 

If this continues on to BOR, it is certainly appropriate they find he has not met the requirements and you get some feedback about tweaking a portion of the program you deliver. You should let the BOR know about this issue before they begin. At a minimum, I would let scout know the BOR was probably going to disapprove his advancement and offer him the opportunity to postpone the BOR.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

[Stosh 3452]

And so that brings back the original question. If the requirement has been marked off by the PL, can it be recinded by the SM?

 

Stosh

[gcnphkr 11]

> If the requirement has been marked off by the PL, can it be recinded by the SM?

 

Certainly a signature can be recended. First if the person signing off did not have the authority to do so then it is invalid on its face. Second, if the scout never did the requirement the signature is invalid as some sort of fraud has occurred.

 

Do either of these apply? Not the first, you seem to have given the SPL authority to sign off on PORs. The second is harder. Here the requirement is "While a Star Scout, serve actively 6 months in one or more of the positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout". Unfortunately actively seems to be defined as "showing up with the title" not "conscientiously". If the agreement was: "Recruit a patrol and you can be its patrol leader" and he never recruited any scouts (it was a patrol of 1) then the signature is invalid. But if it was "You are a patrol leader, now recruit a patrol" then I think he has a claim as long as neither the SPL nor you removed him from the position.

 

I would ask him up front, on his honor as a scout, "Did you earn this?"

[evmori 11]

Sounds like the SPL might have put his own advancement in jeopardy!

[Stosh 3452]

evmori:

 

he's already there for other reasons.

 

Stosh

[Stosh 3452]

The scout who had his POR signed off by the SPL yet didn't do the work did not make it through the BOR. It was their recommendation that the scout talk with the SM asap and get another POR and become functional. They assured him that if that be the case, his next BOR would be nothing more than a review of how he did on the process and then he would be ready for the next rank. This BOR was for Star. He's 12 years of age and pushing hard on advancement, maybe too hard, so this should not hurt him in his scouting career.

 

Stosh