Is this Eagle Canidate Worthy...Interrogation during EBOR?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, skeptic and Eagle92, yeh raise some good questions about da role of uniformin' and a BOR, so I spun that topic off.

 

My point had nuthin' to do with whether uniforming was appropriate. Sorry I wasn't clear. The point was whether it was really necessary for adults to give reminders because they think an Eagle candidate can't manage to dress himself without help.

 

Seems like a lad goin' for Eagle should be able to handle puttin' on clothes without handholdin' from an Eagle Mentor. Just like all da other checklists and paperwork scrutiny and whatnot. And it seems like adults at an EBOR should handle what a person is wearin' in a polite, respectful manner as well, eh? I reckon commentin' on someone's clothing in a "job interview" would be a sign that the employer is a cad.

 

If it's important, then teach it for each rank so he's ready by the time he's applyin' for Eagle. If it ain't important, don't add a bunch of reminders and falderal and paperwork hurdles just because it's Eagle and the nitpicky adults want to get their pound of flesh.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92 110]

Don't remind me of the "warm body" approach. I had a dis. adv. chair try to deny me my Eagle at the EBOR b/c he did not approve my service project, his predecessor did. Stepped out for their deliberations, was asked "what would you do if we told you you didn't get Eagle?" When I asked why it was stated "Because of your Eagle project, it was done 4 years ago." I stated that no where in the HB was there a timeframe for Eagle projects, other than to be done as a Life Scout, and I wanted to know who I would need to go to to protest this decision as I had met all of the requirements, including the service project.

 

Luckily his predecessor who did sign the paperwork was also on the EBOR. After a second discussion among the EBOR members with me outside the room, I got Eagle.

[eisely 13]

All of the above are worthy comments. I too am "eagle coordinator" for our troop. In that role I don't approve anything or sign anything, but help the aspiring eagles claw through the paperwork. I laughingly tell the eagles and their parents that we are teaching another life lesson here - how to deal with paperwork and bureaucracies.

 

One important shift in our district, and I believe the entire council, is to get the "program officer" to sign the application before it goes to an EBOR. This person does the detailed scrutiny. This has been a very helpful change in the process.

 

I don't think that any BOR should be merely a lobbing of softballs, but most BORs for any rank should be largely pro forma if the troop leadership has been performing properly. SMs should not be signing off on scouts for rank advancement if they are not ready.

[JerseyScout 10]

Guh, don't get me started. In the last five years, we've had just under twenty boys make Eagle Scout, most of them excellent Scouts who really worked hard for the honor. Every one of them (and their parents) have come away from the Eagle Board of Review with a horrible taste in their mouth. Scouts are asked the same question four different ways, and then berated if their answers are in any way different. The interviews focus less on reflection of a Scouting career and how Scouting will continue to influence their lives and focus more on tiny, inconsquential details and what I can only describe as "playing games, threatening to deny a Scout his earned-rank if he doesn't grovel properly. I thought at first that it was the board giving my kids a hard time (our troop and our district have been on poor terms with each other for forty-plus years), but asking around this seems to happen to Scouts from every troop, even those whose parents are bigwigs over at district.

 

We've done the training, we do mock Boards ahead of time, we have a trained Eagle coordinator, and we have recent Eagle Scouts go through all of the paperwork with prospective Eagle Scouts to try to iron out any potential weak points. Nothing has worked, nothing makes the slightest bit of difference.

 

You want these Eagle Scouts (who must be fairly dedicated, or they wouldn't be Eagles) to continue to give back to Scouting with their time and Friends of Scouting contributions, but you treat them poorly and have them come away from what should be the capstone of their Scouting career, a chance to reflect on what they've done and reflect on how it will shape them, feeling angry and disallusioned. Hell of a way to run an organization.

[sherminator505 10]

I have heard horror stories about EBORs in the past. Mine was a breeze from my point of view. I wasn't told until much later that 2-1/2 hours was outside the norm. But that isn't the point of my rant...

 

So why was it that I didn't leave the EBOR frazzled and disillusioned? Perhaps it was the relative seriousness that our troop treated EVERY board of review. There were a number of procedures that were always followed:

 

* Every Scout who owned a uniform was expected to wear it to every board of review.

 

* Every Scout appearing for a board of review was introduced to the board by his patrol leader (or the SPL, if he was a patrol leader).

 

* Every Scout expected to be asked about Scout spirit, his advancement, what requirements were more challenging, what service he performed (if applicable).

 

* Every Scout could expect a decision as to advancement after a brief deliberation, along with the gift of feedback.

 

This was a good way to ensure that there was no fear of boards of review, while also ensuring that the experience was respected. The only Scouts in our troop who were afraid of boards of review were the ones going for Tenderfoot.

[mmhardy 10]

Wowlooks like we hit a bit of pay dirt on this topic. I think JersyScout summed it up best. Except for the 14yo Eagle candidates, (so now what are you going to dobut thats another topic.) For many boys the EBOR represents one of the last rank requirements that the BSA makes them go though and one of the last experiences in Scouting before they age out. While my EBOR in 1979 was great, it sound like boys today have a high potential to have a crappy experience. Not a Good Sign.

[packsaddle 753]

JerseyScout, that sounds like the boys are getting the kind of experience that Beavah would like not to happen. We've only had two such experiences and only one of those was the result of the EBOR. They both were awarded the rank but both left scouting immediately afterward, according to them, permanently.

 

Eisely, it sounds like we have some common experiences. We too have to 'pre' prepare with certain signatures before the EBOR convenes (dictated by Council policy).

One thing I have in my favor is that I get to round up most of the EBOR members except for the district guy. This gives me an opportunity to 'fine tune' the makeup to best fit the lad. I follow BSA guidelines, no parents and no leaders, and in fact I often have no one that the boy already knows. However, I try to get people whose attitude is one of honest and sincere give and take in a constructive way, rather than presenting additional tests that must be passed by the boy. Most of the boys come away feeling very positive about their experience and BSA in general.

[John-in-KC 311]

First comment:

The Eagle App stops once at Council for a pre-certification. The youth member does not get certified to have an EBOR without that. Now, is that just my Council, or is that all Councils? Dunno. Do know it's echelons above my DAC to fix.

 

Second commnet:

After the EBOR, the SE has to personally (so I am told) sign the Eagle app before it goes to Irving. There, it gets a brief administrative review before Eagle certificate and credentials are cut. I think all of us have heard at least one story, even in the current short turnaround era, of an Eagle app coming back to Council because somehting is not right.

 

Assessment: Beavah may be a managing partner in his firm (or he may be solo, I dunno). He's past the point where he needs someone to scrutinize his paperwork any longer. Now, if Beavah was a first year wet behind the years just out of law school associate, would you not have someone errorchecking his detail work as well?

 

To me, we've got the next to last lap, the Eagle app process, too hard. It reflects adult life a little too much. This isn't rocket science. ScoutNet has the data. We should be able to have the youth log on, hit a button which says "Generate my partial Eagle application from file data", and then it's a matter of unit refinement.

 

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As to the EBOR,

 

It's not a retest of skills. It should not be something that needs three layers of preparation (and trust me, in August I went through a 3 layer prep for a dog and pony show to corporate management ... what a waster of productive time).

 

That said, it's not right for it to be a Kum-Bye-Yah session either. Scouting is designed to develop the whole man, so the EBOR should check in with the whole man: The matrix for that is the Scout Oath and Law. Probing, open-ended questions have a downside... they take time to answer. They also have an upside: You get at the whole man; you get to see how he ticks.

 

As far as ELSPs go, if I were a CC and the DAC questioned a projects' approval after the fact, I would call the board to executive session, then go out and tell the Scout "you won't be having your EBOR tonight; it's a grown-up thing." My next step would be to call my COR and tell him I needed him at once. My last step would be to tell the DAC ... we can evaluate how he executed the product, but if you aren't willing to underwrite your predecessors' work, there is the door, and you should understand I'll be having a conference call with the DE and the District Chairman tomorrow morning." I'd then want my COR to have my back and say the exact same thing. Scouts execute approved products in good faith that the goal posts won't be moved on them. The District questioning the validity of an approval after the fact is moving the goal posts.

 

OBTW, if I had to adjourn an Eagle Board for grownups not playing nice... the SM enters the room.

 

EagleSon's EBOR lasted a bit over an hour in the talking part ... and there was, by several recounts, much laughter from all members afterward. His board was not a group of lightweights: A member of the Council Exec Board, a District Commissioner, his PD from Scout Camp that summer (also an RT Commissioner), the District NESA rep as District Guest and his CC. The questions weren't easy, but they were all in grasp.

 

Enough said by me.

[Eagle92 110]

I believe a review of the application prior to the EBOR is SOP and is used to determine problems wiht paperwork. And Ithionk this came about after 1992. I say that B/C #1 Once I passed my EBOR there were some "challenges" with the dates on some of my advancements. Apparently the dates in my book said one thing, my records at the council office said another. Apparently the registrar at the time just used the date she inputed the info into the system as the date earned. Thats was 1992

 

However by the time my friend got it in 1995, his application was sent in and rejected prior to the EBOR as according to the council he was only First Class. between the photocopies of his HB and the Advancement Report copies of the troop, we got it squared away. Also i knwo that in my district applications go to the council office PRIOR to the EBOR.

[Twocubdad 665]

Our Eagle boards are of the variety where they are run by the troop with troop volunteers and one representative from the District. That seems to be how most are run, but it sounds like there may be a few exceptions.

 

We also do mock boards which tend to cover a little more Scoutcraft material and have a bit more of a retest flavor. As much as anything that's a hold-over from the old school board of reviews, but it also keeps the boys on their toes. Hey, it a mock board, so no harm no foul.

 

I think our advancement chairman does a nice job of striking a good tone at the actual board of review. It ends up being a very thoughtful and heart-felt conversation between the Eagle candidate and a group of adults who have watched him grow up in the troop. It's a bit of a victory lap, and rightly so.

[red feather 10]

The troop that I serve works hard to make sure that the Eagle candidates paperwork is correct before it goes to Council and they make sure that all paperwork is correct before it goes to National.

 

If the scout passes all these paperwork tests and it comes back from National to hold the EBOR then the paperwork side is passed. Period.

 

Only time that there was an issue was in my memory was one letter of recomendation that was 'off'. Contact of the writer cleared up the reason and the letter was rewritten. No issue afterall.

 

No retesting of skills is done, instead the focus normally is on the candidates understanding of what being an Eagle Scout will mean to him in the future. Getting to the EBOR is the last step on the Trail to Eagle now if passing the EBOR the Trail of the Eagle begins.

 

That is when the wakeup begins. The added responsibiliy of being an Eagle Scout throughout their life is to many a kind of a wakeup call and the meaning will start to sink in. The full value will not be 'real' for some time. That's life.

 

An EBOR imho is like an interview for what position in the community that they are taking on. 14 through 15 they will not get it for some time. 16 through 18 minus, neat to see the light come on.

 

If they have made the EBOR and do not say something really dumb then they have earned the rank. EBOR participants job is to drive the idea home.

 

Some Eagles flap, some Eagles soar. They are all Eagles.

 

just my opinion

 

yis

red feather

[John-in-KC 311]

Mock boards, retests, at any rank, are wrong.

 

Either you trust your PLs, Instructors, TGs, QM, ASPL and SPL (if you are truly youth led), or them and your ASMs and SM (if you are partly youth led) or your ASMs and SM (if you use the Adult Run Troop Method)...

 

Or you do not trust them at all.

 

Now, if the Committee has a concern that the Scoutmaster's program is not up to snuff, it can schedule non-advancement Boards of Review for assessing retention of a skill by a certain set of Scouts. In that case, the committee is looking at training delivery and reinforcement, and I'd expect feedback (it's gift) be given the Scoutmaster. If, in this assessment, the Board finds a Scout needing training, the SPL should be so notified.

 

Anything else is just plain out in left field showing that adults do not trust their youth to execute the program.

[evmori 11]

In our district, which runs all boards for the district, our coordinator goes over everything with a magnifying glass before even thinking about the review board. Once a board is scheduled, he has a check list that is used with the scout to try and make sure he comes totally prepared. One of the things on that list is complete uniform, including pants.

 

And herein lies many of the problems. Requiring a full uniform at an EBOR is adding to the requirements the same way requiring minimum hours for an ELSP is adding to the requirements. There is nothing wrong with going over everything to make sure all the paperwork is completed correctly but adding to the requirements is wrong.

[BrentAllen 10]

Our Council puts out a Life To Eagle Guidebook, which includes a section on preparing for the EBOR. It states:

 

Some units help their Eagle candidates prepare for the board of review by holding a practice board of review prior to the actual board. This can be useful in helping you anticipate what it will be like to sit for the board of review and to get advice and feedback on how to conduct yourself during the board. This is entirely optional, but some units have found it to be very helpful to the Eagle candidate.

 

We used to practice for job interviews when coming out of college. I see nothing wrong with it. The point is to get the candidate a little more comfortable with the process, not to somehow coach the boy to cover up for anything missing. Just another step for the candidate to be prepared. Our EBORs are conducted at the district.

[Knot Head 10]

We have Star & above scouts run "practice BORs" (that's what we call them) for the T rank under the eye of an ASM. We think it helps the T candidate get comfortable for his real BOR and helps the Star & above understand the adults in a BOR are not "out to get them".

 

It's not a requirement to participate and we don't fail anyone. It's just a good way to allow the candidate and older scouts to grow a little bit we think. We also do "practice eagle BORs" and I think it is a good idea. Kinda like practice for a job interview or oral exam at school I think. Probably takes a little pressure off the candidate too and it helps the candidate "be prepared". Any candidate could skip the practice BOR, but no one has ever complained that I know of, and most say it helped them out.

 

It is a shame people have horror stories about eagle BORs. Adult power trips. sheesh.