Eagle Project Nightmare

[Twocubdad]

Friendly cup of coffee my foot! It's time to kick some backsides.

 

This is an adult problem and needs and adult solution. Your son needs an advocate, someone to go to bat for him, whether it your, his dad or a troop committee person.

 

Call this bozo Troop Eagle adviser and give him 24 hours to approve the project or provide your son with the info he needs to appeal the decision, AS IS REQUIRED BY BSA ADVANCEMENT GUIDELINES.

 

If he doesn't come across, go back to the DAC with the same demand.

 

At that point I would write a SHORT letter to the Council Advancement Chairman explaining the situation and requesting quick a review and approval of your son's project. Failing that, they should provide you with instructions for appealing their decision to National. Send copies of your letter to the Scout Executive and Council president.

 

I am sick and tired of the empire building that goes on in Scouting with people using their tenure and experience to throw their weight around.

 

If people get their knickers in a knot, TOUGH!

[Hal_Crawford]

I believe the signature line for Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor refers to a Boy Scout Scoutmaster, a Varsity Coach or a Venture Crew Advisor, effectively the same position depending on the type of unit. As the scout in question is in a Boy Scout Troop his SM should sign the workbook.

 

[momof7scouts]

"The reason your son got turned down by district is because he has to have a signature, not because it has to be the adviser's signature."

 

Nope, he has the signatures, but the DAC said that he needed the Eagle Adviser signature too. SM dad pointed out that there is not even a space for him to sign. Since son two is not getting the time of day from anyone, SM dad spoke to DAC for about two hours. DAC said to take it to EA one more time.

Did that tonight. Tonight EA wants plan reorganized because son two has written up everything so many times that it is too lengthy and repetitive. Wants all "I"s taken out, must be in third person. Pulled out a calculator and discovered that the manhour estimates at the end of each stage did not total the estimated total manhours so wants them redone in bold and a correct calculation. Told him that he should not be contacting organizations for help (which he previously told him he needed commitments from) but that he should have others do that for him. Told him he should be relying more on boy scouts and did not like the help he was getting from the martial arts school, girl scouts and cub scouts.

SM dad is going to contact the DAC again tomorrow.

[Eagle92]

OK Now I am ticked off. Your DAC need to be FIRED because he is violating national advancement guidelines by adding requirements, the "Eagle Adviser" signature, on a service project approval. While I beleive the scout should do some things to protest this injustice, since he is obviously getting the run around and not being taken seriously, then adults need to get involved. This is the one thing I hate about some scouters, they do not take the Scouts seriously.

 

Something I would do.

 

1) get a copy of the Advancement Guidelines, the book I posted a link to previously that has all the regulations on advancement at every level. Note it and use it as documentation.

 

2) Have Son 2 write a description of the nightmare that he has undergone.

 

3) Talk to all Eagles in your unit about this problem and see if they will write letters abotu the situation they encountered.

 

4) Talk to other SMs and ses if they are having problems. If so then get their support.

 

5) Talk to to CC and COR about the situation first. Show how the process is NOT following BSA Policy and that you will need their help to get the district straight, since it appears to be a district problem now.

 

6)Have a meeting meeting with the Key 3 (DE, District Commissioner, and District chair) talk about what is going on and how it's not following BSA policy. Present your letters of support and encourage that the process is fixed and the DAC be removed. NOTE also be prepared to take over as DAC as it's been my experience in that if you bring out problems, you are expected to fix them.

 

7) If you get nowhere with District key 3,take it to council.

 

 

8) If you really want skip some steps and go directly to council as the problem is that serious. the steps above is based upon my experience with one SE who didn't want to deal with things unless he absolutely had to.

[evmori]

For some reason, this bozo has it in for your son! Now he is making undo everything he had him do originally! If the DAC still refuses, I would go to council.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm... I reckon we've gone from da sublime to the ridiculous, eh? Still, it is incumbent upon us as adults to demonstrate to the lads how to pursue an issue respectfully, eh? Yeh should take pains to conduct yourselves with the utmost kindness, respect, and courtesy, as an example to your son. Be ready to listen, too. Some of da things you mention, like "taking the I out" aren't bad techniques to emphasize to a lad that others are supposed to be doing the work while he leads and directs. Some of da other things you mention, like an estimate of man hours, are required. Still others, like proper proofreading, are rightly expected. As you describe son #1's proposal, odds are it would not have been approved in most districts.

 

As NeilLup suggests, it's really hard to give advice by remote, not knowin' who da players are. But here are some thoughts, if you've already exhausted having the firm sit-down with this gentleman himself and the CC.

 

1) This should not be dad's fight, or the SM's fight. Again, this is the district inappropriately rejecting a proper project submission which has been approved by the unit committee. It's da CC's job to pursue this on behalf of the unit. That has the added advantage of not making it a "pushy parent" issue in anyone's eyes. Advancement folks deal with pushy parents constantly, eh? There's a presumption of impropriety and annoyance that won't be there if the matter is pursed by the CC.

 

2) The CC's job is to get the boy's project rolling. That can be with a sit-down with the DE, Program Director, or SE as NeilLup suggests, or through the full district advancement committee, or through a sit-down with the district chair, or through a formal written challenge to the council advancement committee. Whatever seems best in your situation. At the same time, da CC should inform your COR.

 

3) The role of the COR is to fix the issue permanently at the district. COR can do that with a conversation with the district chair, first, then conversations with the council advancement chair, etc. Yah, and if necessary by showin' up with some other COR's at the next district committee meeting and introducing a motion for the immediate removal of the district advancement chair. COR can also inform da council and the individual that your "Eagle Advisor" is no longer a registered adult leader with your troop.

 

4) The SM's task is to find a role for the boy to play in the process. Writin' up his experience. Printing up copies of his first draft and every subsequent revision into a big binder. Prepping the lad to go meet with the COR, perhaps, or with the Council Advancement Chair or SE. The boy is going to learn more, and be more proud, if he plays an active role in the resolution. It'll be a much poorer experience if adults completely "take over". That's not to say adults shouldn't be involved at this point, eh? But they shouldn't cut the lad out. If he's an honor student, well spoken, and up to it, he should be taken to meet with folks to present his own case (after da adults do a little setup behind the scenes).

 

Good luck with it.

 

Beavah

 

[momof7scouts]

I am still having a hard time understanding all the "rules" on the eagle project. I really want to because I do have three more sons who want to do this. Where do the additional rules come from?

 

Our council has this to say about the plan: "Plan your work by describing 1) the present condition, 2) the method, 3) materials to be used, 4) project helpers, 5) a time schedule for carrying out the project. Describe any safety hazards you might face, and explain how you will ensure the safety of those carrying out the project."

 

For the CC: " review the Life Scout's Eagle Project plan, address any safety, scheduling, unique resource requirements, and other issues as necessary."

 

For the DAC: "review four issues: 1) Is the project benefactor valid? 2)Is the plan feasible 3)Is the plan safe? and 4) How will the Scout demonstrate leadership"

 

There is nothing in any of this about the use of the pronoun "I" or the grammar and punctuation, nothing about minimum hours being over 100, nothing about addressing safety issues that do not concern the project, nothing about total man hours, nothing about having the plan so well written a total stranger could take it and do it.

 

Part of my issue with this is that some of the "required" work son two has done has been a waste of time. Example: He stated in plan that Cub Scout CCs would be contacted to see if cubs were interested in working on an Eagle project. EA told him to contact cubs directly, through e-mail, and have a copy of proposed e-mail in plan. Son two wrote out proposed e-mail and attached it but CC has told him he may NOT send e-mail to cubs but may come to a pack meeting to present his project to the cubs.

Even if parts of the plan do not work out as he intends, that does not mean the project will fail, there is even a place to cover this in the workbook.

 

The council asks if the project is "feasible" not perfect.

 

[shortridge]

Politely speaking, they come out of someone's posterior.

 

Ask the "Eagle Adviser" (and I use that term loosely based on your description), the DAC or the council advancement folks to show where those rules are written. They won't be able to, because they don't exist.

[GKlose]

Maybe I missed this along the way, so I'll ask for clarification:

 

"Eagle Adviser" is not an official position, either with the troop or the district or council. However, in this particular case, the troop chooses to assign a registered scouter the unofficial task of being an Eagle Adviser, who is supposed to assist a Life Scout with the process of developing an Eagle Project and taking that to the district advancement committee for approval.

 

Do I have that correct?

 

If so, I'm unclear on who is really insisting the "problem EA" must be part of the process. Is it the troop committee who insists on the EA, or is it the district advancement committee (or chair) that insists all Eagle projects are submitted by EAs and not by Eagle candidates?

 

(thanks!)

[NeilLup]

Hello Momof7Scouts:

 

I apologize if my earlier post was not clear enough. I'll try again.

 

The problem, plain and simple, is

 

a) with your unit's "Eagle Adviser"

b) with your District which is allowing the "Eagle Adviser" to be a complete gatekeeper and roadblock

 

but mainly with the Eagle Adviser. You can spend all the additional time that you choose looking at Eagle requirements, etc. but I believe that will not gain much for you. You know what the requirements are, what your son has done, etc.

 

I believe that the problem will continue until you, your son, your unit or someone comes up with a way to get over, under, around or through the "Eagle Adviser." This may be difficult or unpleasant but from what you have written, I don't see any other way.

 

And if the District is supporting the Eagle Adviser, time to get over, under, around or through the District.

 

[WilVick]

Wow, Momof7Scouts, you have your hands full with this one. With due respect, Dad, as SM should probably stand back as he will probably only be seen as pushy parent in a neckerchief. You should do the same for much the same reason. Don't leave Number 2 Son out to dry, but depend on other leaders in the unit.

 

If the Eagle Adviser is a troop position, it is probably a committee appointment. The CC can deal with it; if he can't, go to the COR. His/her role as liaison to the Council Board and District Committee allows him/her the ability to act on behalf of the Executive Officer of the sponsoring organization to remove from the troop rolls any volunteer who can not work on behalf of the troop.

 

Beavah, I love the accent...I'm sure I've heard it before from my mother who was raised in Waterville, ME. Thanks for the memories of her time as a den mother and of the family I don't see nearly enough....but I digress. I have to agree that this young man needs to help in his own defense. The Eagle Project is, in my humble opinion, more a test of leadership skills than it is a proof of community service. Your thought of copying all material to date is perfect. In my current role of classroom teacher, I am expected to document discipline as well as grades, etc. to cover myself. When I was a camp director, it was my job to deal with issues that could arise among staff members...copies of every letter and report were put into my "cover yourself" file to have on hand in case it was necessary. These are skill that this young man will use in the future.

 

Everyone else who saw the obvious overstep that this individual is taking with BSA Advancement Requirements and Policy, Bravo! This guy is way out of line. We do not have the authority to add any requirements. I've twice had to reprimand staff members at camp who had added requirements to merit badges they were counselling. In one of those cases, Emergency Preparedness, the member had declared that no Scout under age 13 could work on the merit badge. There were, at the time, no age requirements on any merit badge, including the newly developed Climbing Merit Badge. The second was wilderness survival when a staff member informed Scouts that they could not carry a sleeping bag with them as they wouldn't have one in a "real situation." Both staff lost their battles. We don't add.

 

This man needs to step down. He sounds like he has determined to keep the Eagle from one who is not deserving in his eyes. Let the action be taken by those who should do it. A wise friend once told me that volunteers can be fired and should be if they are hurting the program. He is.

 

As for organization, grammar, spelling, etc...you're right, none of this is in the requirements. That doesn't make it unimportant. Let one of the first things your son does be a revision of his paper taking into account the information that must be there. Take some of the "adviser's" advice (if indeed any was given), and repair the paper. Hopefully he did this on a word processor and saved the files as each was revised. Do a final revision, ask a Langauge Arts teacher to review it...he can even send it to me if he'd like...make the changes for grammar, etc., then declare it the product. The final product should be a publishable piece. I would be honored to help another Eagle Candidate on his way...HE only needs to ask.

 

Tell him not to lose heart. I dealt with the same with a Scoutmaster when I was 16 and pursuing my Eagle. This particular individual made life so difficult that I nearly gave it up until I decided I wanted it more than he didn't want me to have it. Good luck to you and to your son. I'm sure he is a young man all of will be proud to call brother.

 

Wil Vickery

 

 

[Nike]

Mom,

 

Where do your troop's CC and COR stand on all of this? Are they aware that National policies aren't being followed, or are they of the "Well, we have a certain standard around here" type?

 

You certainly do have the patience of a saint.

[momof7scouts]

The closest I can tell, all worship this man as the founder of the troop and my son and his father, though scoutmaster, are outsiders. Although I have been a den mother for fifteen years with three different packs (and have all the training you are supposed to get for that) and I am trained to lead a venture crew (my daughters did not like girl scouts but liked RAMS crews), I have had little to do with the troop because it meets the same nights I teach martial arts.

My son is going through his project for revision 8 and I guess he is trying again to meet with the DAC. If this does not work, I am done letting his father tiptoe around and not try and offend all the powers that be in the troop and district, I am driving him and his folder of paperwork to council.

[ScoutNut]

So, Your CC is the one who has appointed this man as the Troop Eagle Adviser? Your CC, COR & CO all know that this man is not following BSA policies, is driving boys away, and this is OK with them?

 

If your Troop refuses to help it's Scouts by appointing a new Eagle Adviser who actually follows BSA policies, then I think it is time to go shopping for another Troop.

 

Your son can complete his Eagle in another Troop. Even if he manages to stick it out in this Troop thru his Eagle project, I would still look to transfer Troops. This Charter Organization and Troop Committee do not support it's Scouts.

 

Scouting (even the Eagle process) should be FUN. Not an ulcer inducing torture.

 

[momof7scouts]

I only know what goes on in the troop from the perspectives of three sons who are in the troop. I try not to compare it to the only other troop that we have been in because no one wants to hear "but in out old troop". However, my sons have had to fight for every single rank advancement they have received. My littlest guy in the troop is eleven and I watched him take his book to meeting after meeting trying to get rank sign-offs for a camping trip. Everyone was too busy to sign off at camp, and yes he tried to get them there. So when they came back, he carried that book to every meeting, only to be told over and over, "I don't remember you doing that." Troop policy says relatives can't sign off so his father and two life brothers were unable to sign off for him. Finally, the one working on Eagle now, starting going to the leadership with him trying to help. Eventually, he got all the signatures but both of his brothers did sign some and were prepared to stand up to any who questioned the signatures.

 

This has been not be the exception and, by the overall lack of rank advancement, I do not believe my sons are unique in this. The only thing they have going for them is that they know it should not take a year to make tenderfoot from previous experience so they push when they know they have completed requirements where some of the newer boys who don't know what to do just don't progress.

 

There have not been very many boys making Eagle in the troop compared to others. A year ago we were at an adult recognition ceremony and I overheard one of our ASMs commenting that another troop had an absurd number of Eagles for that year. I did not think much about it at the time but now I don't think the other troop had too many but that we don't have enough. Now I know why.

 

Last night SM dad talked to the DAC about what to do for the troop. (Son two is going to take his stuff to this DAC who is going to personally take care of it.) I am not sure of the details but I think the overall sense is that the CC and previous SMs have allowed this to get to this point and now SM dad is going to try to fix it by making the CC and committee take charge of approvals and have EAs guide and provide knowledge but remove them from the approval process.