The advancement prevention committee

[EO2(SCW)Ploense 10]

Greetings to all this fine Sunday morning. As many get ready for church before the Super Bowl. I was looking for some commentary on one of many incidents that a former so called SM created that at the very least was contrary to the Spirit of Scouting if not in violation of its laws. This is near and dear to me because it naturally involved my son.

 

Steven was organizing his Eagle project. He was building a Learning Garden at the elementary school where he attended. I should preface this by saying the fromer SM and the Eagle Coordinator are friends. My son was supposed to show his first copy to the committee on a Sunday at 3:00PM. He planned on typing the draft Sunday after church. However, the committee decided to change the time of its meeting to that saturday night during an overnight event. Now Steven is in a catch 22. The adult leaders demanded a level of participation for scouts to advance. They also wanted to see the plan before Steven went to the Eagle guy. Miss the event and loose points for scout spirit, give the committee a less than satisifactory report and deal with that. Steven informed the CC whose opinion was to give the project as is and improve it later. The committee put him through the wringer. It did not seem to be a character builder as much as a lets bash the kid fest. I sat by and let the adults have at it. At the very least I wanted my son to stand on his own.

 

Steven later took the first draft to the Eagle coordinator. He gave Steve the improvements he wanted to see and sent him on his way. The following meeting the SM told me that my son's plan was an embarassment to the troop. That his friend told him it was the worst he had seen. The SM gave me this long speech on how some boys are not cut out to be an Eagle. I listened, but said nothing. If I started it would have ended in a fist fight. The SM's son was held back from advancing on numerous occasions because of maturity issues and when the SM's son went for Eagle it almost tore the troop apart because of the move not to let him advance. His son did make Eagle. It will probably the achievment of his life. Good for him.

 

Steven perservered. He improved the written project. He secured materials and funds. He tried to coordinate labor; however, the SM who had the access to where the troops tools and van was would not return Steven's calls. On the day of the project two of the adults arrived and a couple of the kids. The SM was nowhere to be found. Steven was quick in his thinking and called his grandfather who had a treasure trove of tools and the necessary wheelbarrow for the project. By day's end the garden was in and complete. The following meeting the SM gave some song and dance about not being able to get the van insured in time. He could not account for not returning the calls. He did not say why he couldn't attend to help the project. The SM's son later let it slip that he and dad spent the day raking leaves.

 

Perhaps this was a bit of a long story;however, this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

A good SM puts aside personal opinion and helps the scout.

A good SM constructively critisizes rather than bad-mouths.

A good SM molds leadership along the way and does not late in the day decry its absence.

A good SM leads by example.

 

I could go on but eagerly await your commentary.

 

Regards,

EO2(SCW)Carl M. Ploense III

[CalicoPenn 729]

Did your son get his Eagle?

 

 

[EO2(SCW)Ploense 10]

Yes he did, but after much worse circumstances passed from the hands of so called leaders.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Hi EO2! Welcome to da forums, eh?

 

I'm sorry to hear you had a difficult experience with your son's former SM.

 

I'm glad to hear your son exhibited the patience, resilience, and maturity to deal with it. I reckon that was a well-deserved Eagle, eh?

 

SMs on their way out I've found sometimes are just gettin' sick of the job, eh? They've put a lot of time and years in, and are just tired of it. Probably should have retired a year or two earlier, but maybe nobody stepped up?

 

Water under the bridge. The SM has moved on, you have an Eagle Scout to celebrate! Don't take away from your son's joy and accomplishment with your anger over his old SM. Let it go. But encourage your son to stay involved because Scoutin' is a great program, and he would make a good ASM someday soon, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[FireKat 10]

I agree with the others that it is water under the bridge. Use it to learn from.

I think what you are looking for is how to handle something like that it it would happen again. I would talk to the CoR, they are the say in SMs. Include the CC in the talk if possible. If the problem cannot be resolved there is always going to another troop. I have found sometimes if you can get a third party to talk for you it can keep your temper under control if you have a fear of loosing it.

I hope the Troop is running better nowand that did not sour your son on scouts. P>

Edited for typos(This message has been edited by firekat)

[Stosh 3452]

Those things in life we pay the heaviest price for end up being the things that are of the greatest value to us.

 

I'm sure that as time passes, your son will realize the value in the lessons he learned that went far beyong the project he chose.

 

My sincere congratulations to your son on his Eagle and the class act he demonstrated to those around him in getting it.

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC 311]

Hi Mr Ploense,

 

Congratulations to your son!!!

 

One of my personal challenges is to leave behind emotional baggage which I no longer need to, and should not, tote.

 

I'll endorse what Beavah said! Celebrate the good. Drop the bad in the dumpster. Storing up bad stuff doesn't help anyone, least of all you Been there, had it happen to me.

 

Again, be a proud Eagle Dad! Your son did it!!!

[EO2(SCW)Ploense 10]

Thanks for the comments. Is it just me or did our old SM behave badly?

 

How would some of you handle similar circumstances?

 

regards,

Carl

[evmori 11]

How would I have handled it?

 

When I was a SM and a Scout was working on his Eagle project, my role was one of adviser & helper. I would tell the Scout I would review his project & offer critique & would be available to help with his project in any way he needed. But 1st, I would advise the Scout it was HIS project, not mine or his parents. If he needed my assistance all he had to do was ask.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[EO2(SCW)Ploense 10]

evmori,

 

Thank you for your input. As I suspected good SM's actually show up at an Eagle project.

 

Yeah, I remember something about loyalty, courteousness, trustworthiness somewhere in scouting. But that stuff is for the kids only, right? The adults have a secret rule book that says "Do as I say, not as I do!"

 

So it is just not me who thinks that leadership "style" is as messed up as a football bat.

 

regards,

Carl

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Carl,

 

Greetings!

 

 

I have only a couple of comments to add. There are probably a broad scale in the definition of a good Scoutmaster. But the basic definitions would be found in the Scoutmaster handbook.

 

Troop Committees and the Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmasters may sometimes work like a high performing team. But not always, Sometimes it is difficult to watch a patrol get thru meal preparation and afterwards KP. All the Scouts come from different families, sometimes different schools, and sometimes different neighborhoods. But if they work together, imagine the things they can do. Similarly, a Troop Committee and adult leadership is somewhat like a patrol, they all come from various backgrounds, but they have to work together for the best of the troop and Scouts.

 

While we in this forum are only hearing one side of this story. I concur, no Scoutmaster should diminish an Eagle Scout project.

 

Some projects are dynamic, huge, and monumental projects. Other projects are small in scale, but still demonstrate leadership and service to others.

 

The unit committee and the Scoutmaster are two of the approvals before beginning a project. Along with planning, communications, and safety. They will probably ensure there is a benefactor as well.

 

I have been slightly disappointed in hearing a few descriptions of Eagle Scout projects. Such as, no leadership involved, no communications, unsafe practices/work, violating local and state laws even, and services rendered to a commercial in nature benefactor.

 

At this point, my unit committee usually educates the Life Scout in the intent of this project. It must be for an actual benefactor, it must demonstrate leadership, it must be safe, etc, etc.

 

I have been spoken to as a parent of a couple of Life Scouts. As a courtesy, committee members have informed me what is needed, what is lacking, or my own Scout's misunderstandings.

 

I too have spoken to fellow parents about the outcome of a unit committee review of their Eagle Scout project. "Good in theory, but your son has a project that is unsafe. Or; Good in theory, but this project violates local ordinance and laws"

 

If you quoted the Scoutmaster correctly. "the SM told me that my son's plan was an embarrassment to the troop. That his friend told him it was the worst he had seen". If the quote is exact, maybe that was a misjudgment on the Scoutmaster part. Maybe a bad choice of words. But are the Scoutmasters actions over all still good? Did the Troop Committee ask the Scoutmaster to assume the role of Scoutmaster, because of his/her performance with all the Scouts?

 

 

I guess you can say, I'm pretty easy. I love for a Life Scout to shoot for the stars and aim high. But I am satisfied at setting the bar at its lowest, and maybe they will make it over. Not a problem, if they satisfactorily met the very basic of standards. They still met the standard.

 

I have said to friends, "that is a really great idea your son has!", but I have also asked some friends, "did you son really think this project all the way thru?"

 

Finally, why I am really responding back to this forum.

 

Your statement "good SM's actually show up at an Eagle project", is a little bit over the line. This statement illustrates to me, immaturity. It definitely appears like you are looking for justification for a school yard fight. Im afraid no one will win, if you maintain that thought.

 

Rather than looking at how you may be able to fight the committee or the leadership, maybe you can see how you can help improve the Life to Eagle process for the next Scout.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[eagle90 125]

"good SM's actually show up at an Eagle project",

 

As a veteran SM. In the beginning, I attended all Eagle projects, but found myself becoming the "go-to guy" instead of the Eagle candidate. Younger scouts would come up to me during the project and ask questions about what to do,where to go, etc. I would direct them to the Eagle candidate, but realized my presence was cutting into the leadership capabilities of the candidate, so I have stopped attending the projects themselves. Of course I will offer any advice to the candidate, and will always follow up on the day of the project asking how things went, what went right, wrong, etc. Just works out better for me and our troop's Eagle candidates.

[scoutingagain 20]

Welcome Mr. Ploense and let me also offer my hearty congradulations to you and your son.

 

I appreciate your desire to vent a little, but I agree with others. Let this go and enjoy your son's accomplishment. Frankly we don't know the situation well enough to really say whether or not the SM acted appropriately or not. We have heard only one side of the story so it doesn't really matter what we think about the SM.

 

I'm satisfied enough with the process to believe if your son fulfilled the requirements and sat through a Board of Review that approved his application he has deservedly earned his Eagle Scout. I wish him well.

 

SA

 

 

[EO2(SCW)Ploense 10]

Thank you all for your input. I wish I could say that the SM in question had better intentions. I could elaborate on the times he yelled at my son, wife, son's friend, and grandparents in front of other parents and scouts. That might belabor the point.

 

As far as being over the top with this individual...it is hard to say. I am rather emotionally invested in the hurt the man did to my family. He had his excuses; however, I thought Scouting was supposed to teach the men and boys a code of conduct that rises above pettiness. Words like HONOR, COURAGE, COMMITMENT are a way of life for me, I have little understanding for those who don't embrace them.

 

Perhaps it is the sense that all the negative things that happened on my son's path to Eagle were unnecessary.

 

Perhaps it was the broken promises of adults I trusted to look after my son while I was in Iraq that anger me most.

 

Perhaps it was the fact that some adults waited until I was deployed to start taking jabs at my son.

 

Perhaps it was the pettiness of a few, and their refusal to live up to "trustworthy" and then try to block my son from Eagle that hurts.

 

Perhaps it was the DE who seemed to take little interest in the matter that led me to this forum.

 

Perhaps I expected better from Scouting.

 

My son gave his mentor pin to the Senior Petty Officer present to pass on to my battalion CO. He said his mentors were the three Seabees from my battalion, who lost their lives while serving in the Al Anbar province. That the sacrifices he made to earn Eagle will never equal what they did. That kind of selflessness is not seen enough any more.

 

I was hoping I was not alone in my thinking that one man's actions and local petty politics were the exception not the rule in scouting.

 

After looking at some of the responses I have hope again in the system.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Hi EO2

Sorry your son had such a difficult time. Two things seem to be the cause. No matter what the quality of your son's proposal was the Scoutmaster (if you quotes are accurate) showed very poor character in dealing with your son.

 

Secondly there seems to be a general misunderstanding of the BSA Advancement policies and procedures by all the adults involved including you as the dad.

 

The only Scout required to be involved in an Eagle project is the Eagle himself. In fact no other youth is even required to be involved.

 

The committee should not have met to review the projct until the Scout was ready, there was no need to rush things for their own convenience.

 

Prior to starting the project the scout just needs the "concept" for the plan to be approved. There is no part of this procedure requiring the scout to ge grilled by anyone.

 

He needs the signature of the representative for the recients of the project to sign saying they are aware of the project and aprove of what the scout is wanting to do and how he conceptualizes doing it.

EITHER the SM, Varsity, or Crew Advisor signs saying they approve.

Then A member of the committee signs for the Committee. This can be any member of the committee. Nothing requires the scout report before the committee as a whole or a sub committee.

 

The unit is not required to supply tools or bodies, and since tools were such an important element of the plan Steve should have had a plan B prepared to cover things if the troop tools did not show up (and it appears he did).

 

The Eagle Project according to the BSA is done "ouside the sphere of scouting" meaning this is not a troop or patrol project and as such there is no need for the SM to be present. Often times an Assistant SM or I would be present only for a short time to observe from a distance to evaluate the youth's leadership in the project, and once we saw things were under his control we would quietly slip away.

 

We have fought these misunderstandings and several more in the Disitrict our Ship is in (things like the myth that you cannot use power tools, or adults as workers...etc. or that you had to meet OSHA standards) for over 2 1/2 years, and have only very recently gotten the council advancement committee to see that they were imposing several artificial barriers for the scouts to have to hurdle instead of helping them enjoy this final step to Eagle.

 

What your unit needs is training. I recommend you find a sympathetic ear in the troop leadership and get them to read the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. And go step by step through what the Eagle Project Workbook actually says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)