What does the requirement mean to you?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, 1Vigil has been goin' around resurrecting old threads of interest, and in the parent thread joins jblake in talkin' about how FCFY used to be FCThreeYears, and how there's a lot of "did it once" rather than "learned it well" signoffs.

 

I'm kinda curious.

 

Using one of jblake's examples, what would yeh say merits a First Class signoff:

 

1. Planned a weekend's meals with a fair bit of help and/or went very simple: oatmeal breakfast, sandwiches lunch, hobo dinner.

2. Planned a reasonable weekend's meals with little help, but mostly copied previous month's meal plan.

3. Planned a weekend's meals multiple times until becoming pretty good at it, then demonstrated a complete, healthy meal plan with zero help.

 

All three can be interpreted as fulfillin' da requirements, eh? Probably only the last one meets the BSA standard of proficiency. But then that's hard to get to in a year, eh? Especially if yeh use NSP and they're takin' turns planning one meal a month.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle732 27]

In our troop the Star and higher Scouts sign off on First Class and below requirements. I'm sure there is a lot of "did it once so sign me off" going on. Since I just took over as SM last month I'm looking at how to change this. Got any ideas anyone? Do the SM and SAs check off requirements in most troops or do the Scouts do it? I think somewhere slightly less than #3 or reasonably proficient is what I would be looking for.

[evmori 11]

All three fulfill the requirement.

[FireKat 10]

I don't know if anyone here can answer this but I thought I would ask anyway; Who came up with the idea of 'first class, first year' and why?

        Most kids are not emotionally ready for any of the responsibilities of the rank which can lead to feelings of failure. Kinda doesent seem to be working in our troop. It is either creating power crazy 'leaders' who just sit back and give orders or ones that avoid trying leadership.Do any of you have the same trouble? How have you handled it?

Thanx and  ....     

 ***Felez Navidad***

Mele Kelikimaka

+++  Merry Christmas  +++

[local1400 10]

My only rule is No Guessing. Either you know it or not.

[Beavah 205]

No guessin' about da three possibilities?

 

I'm not sure there is a right answer, eh?

 

Personally, I'm sorta fond of #3, in that troops that work that way tend to be ones where I really admire da kind of young men their kids get to be before they leave, eh? But I also see a lot of #1 and #2 out there, and they can do fine, too.

 

B

 

[Trevorum 24]

It's good question. I think we would all want proficiency in our Scouts, but as Beav notes that can become a real goal within age cohort patrols where the older fellows tend to hang together rather than actively teaching the young sprouts. I've often seen the new guys learn outdoor skills by simply trial and error over a period of many months. In the case of cooking, the meals cooked as a patrol months (or years) later were always noticeably better than the early efforts. So should we not recognize those early and flawed efforts? I think we should. Those grubmasters should should get the 1st C sign off on their weekend with oatmeal just as the later fellows do with breakfast tacos. If they hang together, eventually they will all become proficient (well, more or less), even the otameal fellow.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Beavah

Looking at one requirement is not the way to go?

As adults we all know that there are four steps to advancement.

1/ First, the Scout learns. Much of his learning comes from other boys in his patrol or troop and by active participation in troop program. His patrol activities are directed toward the skills he needs. Every troop hike, camping trip, or other activity offers potential learning experiences. A Scout learns to pitch a tent by pitching one, to use a compass by finding directions, and to cook a meal by having to prepare and eat it.

 

2/Second, the Scout is tested. The specific requirements determine the kind of testing. Verbal testing is sufficient in some instances. In other instances, a Scout must demonstrate his skills by doing.

 

3/Third, the Scout is reviewed. The purpose of the review is to ensure that all requirements for advancement have been met.

4/Fourth, the Scout is recognized. The final step in advancement involves presentation of the badge, usually at a ceremony before the entire troop.

Before we look the First Class Requirements, we need to back up and look at what has been done before.

Advancement is a series of steps, where the Scout builds on what went on before.

 

Little Beavah joins the Troop. as a Tenderfoot he goes on a camp out. On the Campout, he assists in preparing and cooking one of his patrol's meals. He tells why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.

Little Beavah earns Tenderfoot and is working on Second Class Rank Requirements.

Since joining,he has participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. He has got some idea about menus and cooking.

On one Campout, he planned and cook over an open fire one hot breakfast or lunch for himself, selecting foods from the food pyramid. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Tell how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected.

This entailed learning a lot of different things:

He found out about the food pyramid and the importance of good nutrition. He also learned about how to transport and store food.

Our Little Beavah, is now working on First Class Rank Requirements.

He is working hard on requirement 3(Since joining, have participated in 10 separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.) All the time he is being helped and guided by older Scouts and adult leaders. He is eating helping prepare and clean up the meals at camp. Some are better than others! He can look back at what he learned when he was working on Second Class and knows if the meals are nutritious, he sees if the food is stored and has been transported correctly.

He is a bright kid and sees that requirement 4 has five parts and that they are all inter-connected.

4a. States:

Help plan a patrol menu for one Campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner, and that requires cooking at least two of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs.

When he looks at this. He already knows about the food pyramid. He knows about the nutritional needs. He has seen and helped with the meals at other Camp outs in the past. He is feeling that he can do this!

4b.States:

Using the menu planned in requirement 4a, make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients.

He might need a bit of help with this one. Just how many slices of bread are in a loaf? What does it cost? How much bread is needed for growing boys? Where does this fit into the food pyramid? He is going to need help getting to the store and bringing the stuff home and maybe repacking it so it can be transported safely to the camp out.

4c States:

Tell which pans, utensils, and other gear will be needed to cook and serve these meals.

He can now look back at past camp outs and see what worked and what didn't. -Maybe an extra skillet is a good idea if they are having French Toast, maybe not having a big colander or strainer is a good idea if they are having pasta?

4d.States:

Explain the procedures to follow in the safe handling and storage of fresh meats, dairy products, eggs, vegetables, and other perishable food products. Tell how to properly dispose of camp garbage, cans, plastic containers, and other rubbish.

This is a tough one!! Here he learns about why safe food handling is so very important. He finds out about how foods can be contaminated and how to avoid this from happening. He might even learn a little more about LNT?

4e. States:

On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in

requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup.

Having met all the other requirements and having worked through the Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements, he is now ready, prepared and able to take this one on!!

The requirement can then be met by doing exactly what is stated.

Maybe Our Little Beavah finds out that he really enjoys cooking and wants to think about taking the Cooking Merit Badge.

He kinda knows that if he stays in Scouting chances are that he will have lots of opportunities to improve on the skills needed. But maybe he hates cooking and is really terrible at it? Not lazy, but just not interested. He has met the requirement and in the future might be happy to be the clean up guy?

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah 205]

Looking at one requirement is not the way to go?

 

Yah, I agree. I was just choosin' an example. Da question is about Steps 1 & 2 in Advancement: A Scout Learns (what does it take to really learn? How much practice is needed for an average lad?), and a Scout is Tested (what is each of our standards for a signoff)?

 

Here's some others. Which would be your signoff level for this one:

 

1. Swam 75 yards usin' doggy paddle/head up crawl (might have grabbed pool edge briefly after each 25 yards); struggled through 25 yards of backstroke and float. Barely made it, but tried real hard.

2. 75 yards of flailing forward stroke that was better than dog paddle but exhausting (without grabbin' pool edge). Float and backstroke were OK but not really restful.

3. 75 yards of solid crawl or breast stroke that left a boy tired but more than able to continue swimming; 25 yards of good elementary backstroke and float that let him rest well so he could continue swimmin' strongly.

 

Or perhaps:

 

1. Recite the 9 points of Safety Afloat from a Safety Afloat Card or from memory (with a few prompts/hints).

2. Recite the 9 points of Safety Afloat and describe 'em, using a Safety Afloat Card.

3. Put together a plan for a patrol or troop float trip (which incorporates da Safety Afloat issues "in context" as part of the plan).

 

Maybe:

 

1. Demonstrate a head bandage or collarbone sling usin' materials partially pre-tied by the last person, with someone givin' hints/talkin' him through it.

2. Put on a head bandage or collarbone sling from scratch; might not be quite tight enough so that it would probably fall off after a 5-10 minutes but it's good enough (or gets removed after a minute so no one knows).

3. Responds to a scenario that involves a head wound or collarbone fracture, accomplishes the diagnosis and treatment on his own during the scenario. Makes a fine bandage using improvised or troop first aid kit materials rather than specialty gear.

 

My guess is that folks who are closer to #3 are more traditionalists, eh? Troops that view FC as meanin' somethin' special like what BP meant by it in terms of personal independence.

 

Those might not be FCFY programs, eh? 'Cause I reckon the A Scout Learns time needs to be longer, eh? If yeh expect a lad to apply Safety Afloat, then he has to have participated on several float trips where he got experience & practice with safety stuff, rather than (just) learnin' da 9 steps at a meeting?

 

B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah 205]

Eamonn's meal plannin' example is pretty good, so with his permission, I'm goin' to look at in detail a bit, eh?

 

Help plan patrol meals for a weekend: When he looks at this. He already knows about the food pyramid. He knows about the nutritional needs. He has seen and helped with the meals at other Camp outs in the past. He is feeling that he can do this!

 

At this point, the lad need only have been on 2 campouts, eh? Workin' on his third. Close as I can tell from bein' with kids, there's a big difference between knowin' the food pyramid and being able to plan a tasty set of meals. How much experience do we really think is necessary for a new scout to learn meal planning?

 

make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients. He might need a bit of help with this one. Just how many slices of bread are in a loaf? What does it cost?

 

If da lad needs help, does he get the signoff? Or is that part of A Scout Learns (step #1), so yeh don't sign off on him that time, he has to do it again, a second (or third, or fifth) time without any help, before he gets signed off?

 

On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s)... Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Having met all the other requirements and having worked through the Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements, he is now ready, prepared and able to take this one on!!

 

In Tenderfoot he helped cook one meal. In Second Class he cooked one meal. Is that really enough to be ready to supervise others in the kitchen? Does cookin' one meal successfully really give yeh da skill to cook different meals successfully?

 

Is it OK to limp through da planning and cooking of one day's meals and then never do it again and be "cleanup guy" for da rest of your scoutin' career? Is that da level of independence and skill that First Class means to us, and that sets a kid up for success as a PL to earn higher ranks?

 

Just makin' conversation, of course . It clearly is enough for many troops, but not enough for many others. I'm interested in how people here think about it, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[mtm25653 10]

In our troop, if a boy earns first class in his first year, he's probably been on 8 to 10 weekend (2 night) campouts and a week of summer camp - even if he didn't cook at summer camp (and the first year program at the camp we most frequently goes to does have them cook some meals) he ATE meals at summer camp and got an idea of what is nutritious and tasty. (He also presumably has a family who has taught him something, has been to school where he learned about the food pyramid and may have been a cub where he learned about the food pyramid several times.)

 

He has probably helped cook one or more meals at each of those 8 to 10 campouts, so he has learned what works and what his patrol mates like to eat. He has also seen the adults eat GREAT food and the other patrols eat very good food so he knows that good food is possible on a campout, and his new scout patrol has a troop guide who has been on several years worth of campouts and can give good suggestions.

 

He may choose an oatmeal breakfast (with some extras) because that's what the troop frequently eats on backpacking or other strenuous trips. He might choose a sandwich lunch (with some extras) because everyone likes it and it's quick to prepare and clean up so there is more time for the other activities. He'll probably choose a more elaborate dinner (my son helped invent "cheesy italian ramen skillet" when he was a first year scout - ground beef, pepperoni, onions, peppers, tomatoes, ramen noodles and cheese) and likely a dutch oven dessert. And yes, I would consider that more than adequately fulfilling the first class requirement.

 

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

"In Tenderfoot he helped cook one meal. In Second Class he cooked one meal. Is that really enough to be ready to supervise others in the kitchen? Does cookin' one meal successfully really give yeh da skill to cook different meals successfully?"

 

Short answer, no. We began changing the cooking expectations on campouts about three years ago. Back then, typical meals were - breakfast: scrambled eggs and bacon/sausage or poptarts. Lunch: cold cut sandwiches and chips. Dinner: hamburgers/hotdogs, maybe some chili heated up. The adults, of course, ate like kings but never demonstrated what they were doing or expected the guys to try harder with their meals. Also, the 1st class requirement of serving as patrol cook and supervising assistants was never done. Guys got their first class cooking signed off if they had just cooked three meals, didn't have to be on the same campout.

 

That's not how I read the requirement so we made changes. Unfortunately, our older Scouts having had no real experience with cooking were pretty awful in helping the younger guys plan good menus. So, for a while the adults had to step in and make suggestions. We gave them challenges such as one of your meals must be cooked in a dutch oven, or look at this list of ingredients and a small recipe book and figure out what you can make for dinner. On every campout the adults cooked their own meals making something new or using a new method of cooking in order for the guys to see, smell, and taste different options. One weekend the adults demonstrated making all their meals with little or no cleanup. I think this demonstration was eye-opening for the guys because a lot of times they didn't want to cook much because they didn't want to clean up.

 

Now, our guys working on first class have had experience on the way up helping to plan menus, prepare food and cook it, and can successfully supervise others in cooking their campout meals. While they may fall back on recipes they've used and liked in the past, they try at least one new thing on each campout. The biggest change I've seen is during the actual menu planning. What used to be a free for all that took up an entire meeting with everyone yelling and saying I won't eat that, yuck that's gross, now is at least becoming more focused and less time consuming.

 

Perhaps it is because we took a better look at the advancement requirements. For a long time, one guy (usually an older Scout who was getting fed up with the bickering), wrote down the food items and someone else bought the food, usually in response to "who still needs to buy food for 1st class." Duty rosters were last minute affairs and no one supervised the cooking of the meals, so a lot of time whoever was cooking had no idea that there was bacon to go with the pancakes, or orange juice to drink, etc. Now, one guy writes down the food list, buys the food, and supervises. I believe that this was what is intended for 1st class cooking.

 

On our last campout, our Scouts cooked two breakfasts, one lunch and one dinner: breakfasts were pancakes and bacon on day 1 and biscuits and gravy on day 2; for lunch they made dutch oven pizza; for dinner they found a recipe using Kraft mac and cheese, canned chicken, and corn. The Scout working on his 1st class cooking requirement did not know how to make the gravy for the biscuits and neither did any of the other Scouts. So, he came to me during their menu planning and asked if I would teach him. I guess some may think that this wasn't a proficiency level necessary for sign-off on 1st class, but the fact that he asked BEFORE they finished the menu plan was a big leap from a guy asking after they got to the campsite.

 

From Beavah's original question, I think our troop fits #2: "planned a reasonable weekend's meals with little help, mostly copies previous month's plans," but with the addition of a new thing or two. Not quite to #3 - a complete healthy meal plan with zero help, but we can certainly encourage the guys to get there.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, thanks GWD!

 

Would yeh say you are also around #2 for the other examples?

 

B

 

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

Beavah, I think we're approaching #2 but not quite there yet for many of the other requirements. Swimming is one that we look for actual proficiency (your #3), not just dog paddling and struggling. Some of our guys take a while to get there, but we want to make sure they are actually comfortable in the water, before we take them out somewhere. So many times a guy or his parents say he's a great swimmer, but that is only in a backyard swimming pool where he can easily reach the sides in just a few strokes and touch bottom without going under. Make him jump in a lake where most likely he can't touch the bottom much less see it and he can't take the first stroke.

 

On safe swim/safety afloat, I would say that none of our 1st class Scouts could plan and carry out a float trip on their own or know the Safety Afloat/Safe Swim requirements from memory. Not even sure most of our older guys could.

 

First aid is probably the worst area for our guys. Program plans are made for several meetings a year to go over and practice first aid because our older Scouts have recognized the poor level of skill in this area. But this kind of practice just doesn't lead to proficiency in my opinion. On any campout some guy gets a bee sting, burnt finger, or a cut and never rely on themselves or another Scout to help. Simple stuff that they are not comfortable handling on their own. [side Note: Of course, this may be because sadly our adults tend to step into these situations more quickly than we do others and perhaps we just haven't given the guys the space they need to build confidence in themselves to handle the siutation.].

 

Several times our guys have said they'd like to have more focus on first aid, but never follow through. Older Scouts that have earned 1st Aid merit badge have skills, but the T-1st class experience so far is pretty lacking. Better this year than last and we continue to increase our expectations, just slow getting there.

 

Plant and animal identification requirements are more at your level #1. Guys are able to make the identifications, but ask them a few months later and they can remember what poison ivy looks like but little else. They can most often identify deer or raccoon tracks, maybe a type of bird's nest or a beaver dam, but that's about it.

 

Knots? At last month's campout our very eager new Scout was trying to learn more knots. He came to the taught line. Asked me to help him. I said, please go ask another Scout. He came back to me a while later and said no one knew how to do it. Finally, our Troop Guide came back from setting up their orienteering course and got the guys together to learn "again" the taught line. It is a knot we actually use on campouts, but almost without fail the guys can't remember how to tie it.

 

Later that afternoon I watched as eager New Scout tied a square knot over and over and got the Troop Guide to sign him off. The next morning we were sitting by the fire and I asked new Scout to tie a square knot. It took three tries until he got it. I practice the knots every so often and admit I don't always get them right on the first try either.

[T164Scoutmaster 10]

fcfy a guidline or a requirement?

 

 

Guideline!

 

Advancment is 1/8 of the methods of the scout program.

 

If you are following the boy run organization, I find it very rarely that a scout doing the signing off is easier on a scout wanting to be signed off, then they remember having it. On the contrary. If the guidlines are set and the PLC is funcitoning properly then teh #3 would be the norm and less pressure for first class in a year.

 

I have found that the higher expectations a leader places on a scout and the more opportunity to explore and try, THEY do. If the leaders are always trying new things (to the scouts) then most of the time the scouts want to try it on the next campout. Are we doing campsite inspections and critiquing the efforts from the weekend. Do you give patrol awards, points or kudos for making it to milestones.

 

REward the extra effort and praise for the mediocre effort. All youth want to succeeed and proove they can keep up. how you react in your role as a leader is a direct reflextion of how the scouts react in their roles.