Lets not talk test.- Lets look at the advancement process.

[Eamonn]

The four steps to advancement:

The Scout learns.

The Scout is tested.

The Scout is reviewed.

The Scout is recognized.

The Scout Learns:

Just about anyone can teach, mentor or coach the Scout, if they have the skill and know how. This "Anyone" could be a youth member,Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster, Committee Member or parent.

The Scout is tested:

Once the Scout has learned or has met the requirement, he is given the opportunity to demonstrate his knowledge and show that he has mastered the skill or has met the requirement. If he is unable to do so, more teaching, mentoring or coaching is needed. If he has mastered the skill or has met the requirement a record of this is made. Normally in the Scouts copy of his Scout Handbook.

Different Troops have different rules about who is allowed to sign off on requirements. Many not only allow but encourage other youth members to sign off (initial) the blocks found in the Scout Handbook, while others require that a Troop Leader (An Adult?) does the signing.

Of course the person who is doing the testing does need to have knowledge of the requirement and in most cases know how of the skill.

This is the area that needs the most quality control.

When done correctly it eliminates the other problems which can arise from it not being done right.

The Scout is reviewed:

The review is done in two parts.

The Scout meets with the Scoutmaster for a Conference.

This is a time when everything is checked and the SM makes sure that everything is in order.

It is also a time for both the SM and the Scout to go over what is working and what isn't. (Feedback is a gift.)

It is in no way related to the Spanish Inquisition.

Scouts can not fail a Scoutmaster Conference, but if it becomes clear that some requirement have not been met, it can be tabled until such a time as the requirements have been met.

The Scoutmaster Conference is also a good time for the SM and the Scout to look back at the Scout's strong points and weak points. The Scoutmaster can offer words of encouragement and help the Scout make plans and set goals for the future.

The second part of the review is the Board Of Review.

If all the other steps have been met correctly, by the time a Scout gets to the BOR there should be no question if the Scout is ready or not.

If it does become clear that something is not working? This needs to be taken up with the Scoutmaster. After all he or She has by sending the Scout to the BOR said that the Scout is ready to advance.

Again this is a time when the program offered by the Troop can be looked at and feedback can be given to the SM. It again is a time for the Scout to demonstrate his understanding of the Scout Law and Oath and make plans for the future. Some of these plans might be within Scouting and some might have to do with interests outside of Scouting.

The Scout is recognized:

Having met all the requirements the Scout should be recognized for doing so. He can be recognized more than once.

While the Court of Honor is the big recognition ceremony, there is nothing against recognizing the Scout several times before the COH. Badges or cards can be presented at anytime, with the Badge or the card presentation being done at the COH. Soon after a Scout has had the BOR announcements of the Scouts accomplishments can be made.

Eamonn.

 

[LongHaul]

Why isn't this part explained as well as the others? >> The second part of the review is the Board Of Review. If all the other steps have been met correctly, by the time a Scout gets to the BOR there should be no question if the Scout is ready or not. Ready or not for what? The BOR itself? Advancement? If it does become clear that something is not working? This needs to be taken up with the Scoutmaster. After all he or She has by sending the Scout to the BOR said that the Scout is ready to advance. Then why do we need a BOR that results in the SCOUT advancing or not advancing. Why not a BOR that results in the boy advancing 100% of the time but the SM and the troop program facing consequences? Again this is a time when the program offered by the Troop can be looked at and feedback can be given to the SM. It again is a time for the Scout to demonstrate his understanding of the Scout Law and Oath and make plans for the future. The word "again" in the preceding statement would indicate that we can indeed ask a boy to repeat tasks already completed.  Some of these plans might be within Scouting and some might have to do with interests outside of Scouting.

Any of us that have been around long enough to actually care about this topic know full well what you are trying to say and I wish it were that simple but the truth is it's not. It's not because MBCs don't always do their job, it's not because Parents don't always allow SMs to do their jobs, it's not because some people, National included, are more interested in NOT offending someone than in setting a standard of excellence. It's not that simple because it's left ambiguous so that everyone has negotiating room.

LH

[Beavah]

Yah, the other issue is that while just about every troop uses the SM conference in the way Eamonn suggests (as a pre-BOR), that's not really what da materials say to do. A SM conference might be the first requirement signed off for a rank, not the last. Or a boy may get a SM conference to discuss his shortcomings in terms of Scout Spirit at some point, eh?

 

So really, da only quality control check is the BOR.

 

Like I say, most troops tweak that and use the SM conference as a functional BOR Part I.

 

I think there's really only a few possible outcomes

 

1. A scout really did all the requirements to mastery. SM Conference and BOR are great, boy advances.

2. A scout really did most of the requirements to mastery, but may be uncertain on a couple. SM Conference or BOR catch it, and then what happens depends a bit on da unit's philosophy, eh? Most would still advance the boy, but also give feedback to the SM/signoff person so as to improve da program. A few might feel that's cheating the boy of the learning, and ask the boy to brush up and come back the next week or two.

3. A scout really didn't do most/any of the requirements to mastery. SM Conference or BOR recognize this. One or the other sends the boy back so that he actually gets the fun and accomplishment of really learning. Both respond also by improvin' the program in terms of instruction and testing.

 

Most folks would agree on #1 and #3. It's number 2 where sometimes good folks disagree. Was da boy just nervous? Is it OK to forget a couple of things? What if those things are really important for safety?

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

What I see too often is that the Scout never does anything to mastery. At summer camp and in troops, what I see is "Okay, here's how your tie an inverted klubel-hitch." The Scouts muddle through it once and get signed off. 15 minutes later if you ask anyone to tie the inverted klubel-hitch all you'll get is a blank stare.

 

I remember my brother practicing his knots until he could tie them with his hands behind his back. Then he was tested. I had friends who were scouts and they apparently went through a similar process because they'd walk around with a piece of rope, tying knots.

 

All too often, advncement is not about learning, demonstrating and using skills but about getting boxes checked off so the boy can get a new patch and be on the road to Eagle.

 

I hear adults saying, "We want to have all the new boys to Tenderfoot before summer camp." We? Shouldn't it be up to the boys to say, "Hey, I want to learn this stuff so I can become Tenderfoot." Naaaaaah.

 

Call me a cynic but when I look at the things that fell out of the requirements, I see things that took longer than a day to master.

 

In the 60s a Scout had to master the square knot, sheet-bend, clove hitch, two half hitches and tautline hitch for tenderfoot. Now? Two half hitches and tautline hitch.

 

In the 60s, a Scout had to show skill at tracking. Now? Nope.

 

Signaling? No more.

 

Map making? Uh-uh.

 

Today there are more important requirements like "What to do with a bully!" Don't stand up for yourself, run to your parents who'll call a lawyer.

 

Oops, that's a rant. I'd better stop.

[Eamonn]

Today is my birthday, I'll add another year to the time I've been in Scouting count.

I like to think that maybe I'm one of the people who do care not only about this topic, but for the Scouts we serve and for Scouting.

If we are set on setting a standard of excellence? The standard setting starts with "The Scout learns." Ensuring that the people who are doing the teaching are doing it right is the first step.

Step two "The Scout is tested." is the step that really does set the standard.

I'm not really sure if "Excellence" is the standard?

When I think about Advancement in Scouting as a method of Scouting, it goes hand in hand with Personal Growth and Adult Association.

Advancement in Scouting in Scouting is specifically designed to present every boy with a big challenge, broken up into smaller and smaller challenges. A Scout learns to set goals, develop plans for meeting those goals, to motivate himself to do what needs to be done, to always try his best and keep trying, and even that his perception of what he can do is often wrong. The Scout learns about his personal abilities and limitations, and ways to overcome those limitations and take advantage of those abilities.

Being that we deal with different Scouts with different abilities, we will have Scouts who do excel in some areas, while others will struggle to meet or pass the requirement and might just barely scrape by.

A Scout who is an excellent swimmer and is on a swim team will pass any swimming test with no problem, while a Lad who is new to swimming might really have to work hard at meeting and passing the requirements. The standard is set by the requirement not the excellent swimmer.

 

The time for "Quality Control" is in step one and two.

Once a requirement has been signed off or a Merit Badge has been passed. The deed is done.

Is it the fault of the Scout that someone else didn't do what they were supposed to do? Or didn't do their job?

Should the Scout be penalized for something that was beyond his control?

I know Sea Scouting is not Boy Scouting. But in the Ship I tend to have lots of informal little chats with the Sea Scouts.

Every now and then I'll go on a "Advancement Catch Up" This is when I decide that it's time to get the advancement records up to date. I will meet with the Scouts who need to have records signed and updated. Some things just need to be signed off -Things like number of nights needed for a long cruise. Other requirements will require that the Scout demonstrate a skill to me. Sometimes this can be done then and there or sometimes we will come up with a time when it can be done. There are times when the requirement may have been met, but the end result was not that great! (I'm thinking about cooking -The Scout might have planned and cooked the meals for a weekend but the food might have left a lot to be desired!!) We will have a chat about what went wrong and look for ways of improving the final result.

All along the "Path to Advancement" we have these little talks.

Sometimes a Scout will come up to me and inform me that I need to sign off something. (This is what normally happens!)

Sure every now and then he or she will try and pull a fast one!! Or they might not understand the requirement. I do my best to explain the requirements and not allow the fast ones to get by me!!

We do hold Skipper Conferences and BOR's.

Sadly these are normally rushed and squeezed in before a Bridge of Honor.

I know all of the Scouts, I know what they have done and not done. The Ship's Committee know me, they know that when I send a Scout for a BOR. I'm saying "Here is Sea Scout Whats His Name, who is ready to advance. He is ready to advance because I say he is ready.

I'm not saying here he is because he thinks he is ready.

I'm putting my name and my reputation on the line.

I feel blessed that the Ship's Committee do trust me and know that I'm not going to send them a Scout who hasn't met the requirements.

The Skipper Conference before the BOR, is more formal than the Skipper Chats we have. I do go over all the paper work and ensure that everything is in order. But the time is spent looking back at how the Scout has done (Performed) and making plans for what comes next.

If we found that a requirement had not been met and there was no way of meeting it before the BOR,he or she would have no need to attend the BOR until such a time as the requirement was met. But I'd do everything possible to ensure that we moved on getting that requirement done ASAP and have him or her attend another BOR ASAP.

Eamonn.

 

[Trevorum]

In our troop, we have the long standing tradition of the "Instructor's Conference" for T-2-1. This is held before the SM conference and is between the candidate and a Troop Instructor. The Instructor reviews each scout skill for that rank and serves as our "quality check". Only after the candidate recieves the Instructor's signature can he request a SM conference. The SM can review a sample of skills, but generally focuses on scout spirit and other intangibles. If the SM discovers a skill deficit, he talks to the Instructor. Our BoRs also review a sample of skills but as a check on the program, not the scout. It works for us.

[Beavah]

The time for "Quality Control" is in step one and two.

Once a requirement has been signed off or a Merit Badge has been passed. The deed is done.

 

Yah, it would be nice if that were da case, eh?

 

But the thing is, in Scouting, we're not just teachin' the kids. We're also teachin' the leaders.

 

Sometimes I wish we had skilled outdoorsmen who were outstanding teachers and rigorous examiners.

 

But reality is we have Joe's Patrol Leader, who has OK outdoor skills, is still learnin' how to teach well, and sometimes gets a bit soft on testing. And often Joe Patrol Leader's dad who is helpin' out is in the same boat, eh? That's Scouting. And there's room for quality control on that step. Which is what the BOR step is for (or the SM conference in troops like Eamonn's, or da instructor conference in troops like Trevorum's).

 

Is it the fault of the Scout that someone else didn't do what they were supposed to do? Or didn't do their job? Should the Scout be penalized for something that was beyond his control?

 

I think this is part of learnin' citizenship. We all get penalized as citizens for stuff when our leaders or fellow citizens don't do their job well. It means our taxes go up and we have to work harder, eh? Just the nature of the world. Might make us select better leaders next time, or not.

 

But I think Eamonn's thinkin' that not getting the award is somehow a penalty. That ain't it, IMO. It's not learning that's the penalty. That's what's goin' to stick with the boy for the long haul - the embarrassment of not bein' able to tie the knot, the fear of not knowin' what to do when lost, the livin' with a really awful breakfast because he never learned food plannin'.

 

The award can be earned next week or next month. Dat's not a problem. Really penalizin' a kid is givin' him an award when he hasn't really become knowledgeable and self-confident. Downright cruel, that is.

 

Beavah

 

[Venividi]

"Is it the fault of the Scout that someone else didn't do what they were supposed to do? Or didn't do their job? Should the Scout be penalized for something that was beyond his control?"

 

I am not sure that I agree that this is outside the control of a scout. Scouts are smart enough to know when they haven't learned a skill. It is within their control to say "hey, I dont really understand this, can you help me?" or "Mr Johnson, you showed me how to cook, but the requirement says that I should do it."

Human nature being what it is, it is not surprising for scouts (or anyone else) to take the easy way and accept a bogus signoff. But isn't developing character where a scout is not satisfied with accepting something that he hasn't earned one of scoutings aims?

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Happy Birthday, Eamonn!

[Gold Winger]

I agree with Venividi (what happened to vici?).

 

If this was basketball camp, the boy would be saying, "Hey! I was supposed to learn how to do a reverse lay-up! But all the old guy did was say, don't worry about it, I'll check it off."

 

The difference? The boy knows that without the reverse lay-up, his game will be negatively impacted which makes it important. In Scouting, to many adults, the skills aren't important, advancement is despite every book saying "a good program leads to advancement."

 

Instead of having activities in which a boy can use his new or hone his old skills, we have class room sessions with book sign-off at the end. Since the boy has been led to believe by the adults that advancement is the most important thing, he believes that the check-off is more important than the skill.

 

If I was in charge of a troop, we'd get rid of the "trail to first class" at summer camp which is just a big sign off session. We wouldn't have adults involved in demonstration process. I'd have a boy teach another boy the "bowline" for example and then he'd say, go home and practice. You'll demonstrate it for me next week. If the new guy didn't practice, he wouldn't advance. The same is true for knife sharpening, first aid, maybe everything except fire starting because parents probably wouldn't want fires built in their living rooms but every campout would be an opportunity for a new boy to demonstrate fire building skills WITHOUT an instructor prompting him "okay, now the bird's nest."

 

I'm sure that people are going to jump up and say, "that's not the way we do things." Maybe not. If you're here, you care enough to want to discuss the program. But when I read things like, "the boy shouldn't have to worry about what he needs to advance," I'm not sure.

[BrentAllen]

The boys are smart enough to know when the requirements have or haven't been met. This summer, our new Scouts took Swimming Merit Badge at camp. The instructors did a pretty good job, excellent in some cases, but I never saw them learn or demonstrate survival floating for 5 minutes. When we got back home, I pulled the new Scouts together and asked them about it - they said no, they hadn't done that requirement. I told them it was signed off at camp, so according to the BSA, they had earned the badge. Two days later, my son and several of the Scouts informed me they had gone to the pool, worked on the technique and then performed the 5 minute float. THEY wanted to know they had earned the badge, that it wasn't just given to them.

 

For a different take on SM conferences, read about Eagle Scout George Coker, a former SM, in Legacy of Honor, pg. 72-73.

 

"The boys teach; the SM tests. Before a Scout can advance to the next rank, he undergoes a Scoutmaster's conference. The conference becomes both a test and a counseling session. The SM ensures the young man has learned the requisite skills, and then he talks with the Scout about his hopes, goals and concerns. With relish, George recalled his Scoutmaster conference

'I had a reputation as a SM that you didn't get through my SM conferences easily,' he recalled with a laugh. 'I grilled the kids, and you did not get through until you knew it. Sometimes, they'd get bent out of shape, but it was clear-cut: There was no mischief; I wasn't going to ask you a single thing that wasn't right in the requirements.'

Coker also discovered that many Scouts approached his conference like school: They learned the material for a single test, then promptly forgot all they had learned. That strategy failed in Troop 62. 'For Tenderfoot, that's fine, that's all I ask you,' he said. 'You make Second Class, it's Second Class plus anything left over from Tenderfoot, and for First Class, it's everything under First Aid merit badge, everything from Pioneering, everything from ropes and knots, everything in Safety, everything in the water sports that are required. If you don't know one of them, the conference is over. This was absolutely crystal clear to the kids, and they learned it.

'A strange thing happened,' he continued with mock surprise. 'The boys accepted those standards! They're not arguing about trying to change the standards or saying 'Isn't that good enough?' They know the standards, and they strive to meet those standards."

 

George Coker spent 2,382 brutal days as a POW in Vietnam. He credits his Scouting experience with helping him survive that ordeal and return home.

[evmori]

Rank requirements don't require mastery. They require a Scout demonstrate, show, describe, do, etc. but mastery is in that mix. It would be nice if once a Scout learned a skill, they remembered it & were able to use it down the road.

 

Like someone posted, kids are smart. They know what they need to do to get requirements signed off. It's the ones who take the extra step & master the skills that were taught that will soar with the Eagles.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure I have ever masteres the inverted klubel hitch, but if I wanted to, I would try to tie it at every opportunity I could. Scouts who learn a skill, get signed off on it and never ever use it again will surely not know that skill at some time in the future, some earlier than others. However, if the Troops program is such that the ability to tie an inverted klubel hitch is important, the need to tie it or the opportunity to tie is consistently presented to them, guess what? You will have a troop full of competent Inverted klubel hitch tiers.

 

Teaching a scout a skill and then never presenting them with an opportunity to "do" that skill does nothing for the scout except teach im that scouting skills are superfluous and really not all that important. Use those skills and they become part of the scout

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure I have ever masteres the inverted klubel hitch, but if I wanted to, I would try to tie it at every opportunity I could. Scouts who learn a skill, get signed off on it and never ever use it again will surely not know that skill at some time in the future, some earlier than others. However, if the Troops program is such that the ability to tie an inverted klubel hitch is important, the need to tie it or the opportunity to tie is consistently presented to them, guess what? You will have a troop full of competent Inverted klubel hitch tiers.

 

Teaching a scout a skill and then never presenting them with an opportunity to "do" that skill does nothing for the scout except teach im that scouting skills are superfluous and really not all that important. Use those skills and they become part of the scout

[Beavah]

However, if the Troops program is such that the ability to tie an inverted klubel hitch is important, the need to tie it or the opportunity to tie is consistently presented to them, guess what? You will have a troop full of competent Inverted klubel hitch tiers.

 

Yah, this is true, eh?

 

At which point we don't need Advancement Method . Outdoors Method will do.

 

But if we are going to use Advancement Method, then the award and public recognition that goes with it shouldn't happen until a lad is proficient at da Inverted Klubel Hitch and such. Because that's what da BSA's standard is, eh? Proficiency.

 

Which means we better have an active program so that kids really learn! And if they really learn and the program is really active, then they're bein' retested all the time. A kid who really knows something loves showing it off to adults.

 

Beavah