Venturer vs Troop Merit Badge & Advancement

[diannasav]

I have a son in a troop who is 1st class, he is also in a Venturing Crew. I have read previous forum notes that have said it is okay to double dip when earning a merit badge you can use it for both troop advancement and crew advancement. Please someone validate if I understand this correctly. Our Scoutmaster feels that if they earn credit through the crew it does not count towards any troop merit badge. I do not have my Venture Leaders Specific yet so I'm not fully versed in all the venture standards. What about if a scout transfers from one troop to another do all his achievement, nights of camping, any achievement need to pass on to next troop or can the Scoutmaster decline using any previous advancements or achievements, if so what are they specifically. I work with the boys in both groups and some of these scouts are working very hard towards all of their advancement in both groups and they should receive whatever advancement they have legitimately earned in this troop or in another. Doesn't the council keep records under the scouts name and BSA ID# not just under their specific troop or crew roster.

 

Thanks for input

[Crew21_Adv]

Dianna,

 

Greetings!

 

 

I only have a brief moment to reply..

 

It would be disappointing for a 15 y/o boy, to be told that he will have to demonstrate a skill completely and all over again.

 

Some of the basic outdoor skills from the BSA Handbook, maybe performed further in depth in Venturing. But few are identical.

 

In the Venturing/Ranger Handbook. There is a statement about multiple credit. Venturing begins leading towards five different program areas and bronze award, vice merit badges and rank. But still, there are a few items that are similar between the Venturing Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. Mutual credit is allowed, but look in the Venturing/Ranger Handbook for the specific statement..

 

As far as your question regarding council documenting credit. I would say, yes, somewhat. Most all councils have subscribed to Scoutnet. This database helps the maintain the completion status of rank and merit badges. A database is only as good as the information being put into it though. Unlike a unit database, Scoutnet and councils will not document progress towards rank or merit badge. Councils won't document camping days per youth. They will document the completion of merit badges and completion of rank(as submitted on the unit advancement report) and entered into their Scoutnet (or similar database) by the council registrar.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the Forums.

 

As Crew 21 Advisor said, there can be some concurrent earning between Boy Scouts and Venturing. First Aid comes to mind. If your young man takes the more vigorous approach (the Standard First Aid course requirement of Venturing) to concurrently fulfill First Aid Merit Badge, he should be able to do once for both.

 

I guess that's the first comment: Look at the requirements in both programs, and select the more rigorous of the two.

 

Next: CAUTION: This may burn bridges with you, your son, and the Scoutmaster. Do your homework and figure out if you believe the SM is out of line with his dual credit prohibitions. If you believe he is, and can back it up, you can complain "of the record" at Troop Committee, OR to the Chartered Partner through the Chartered Organization Representative, or through the Unit Commissioner and/or the District Advancement Chairman. These may put heat on the SM to come back to program standards. OTOH, the SM may turn on your son and be non-supportive to him, or he may quit, and you find yourself in a bad position with other Committee folk and parents.

 

Your son has the option of withdrawing from the Troop, and doing it all inside the Venturing Program. Since he's First Class, he can continue to Eagle inside Venturing, as well as work the Venturing recognition system. The downside to this is if he's not yet a member of the Order of the Arrow, he may never become one. OA youth election is reserved to Boy Scouting.

 

I wish you well.

 

YIS.

[CNYScouter]

As a Sea Scout Skipper I would have no problem excepting things like BSA Lifeguard, CPR, SCUBA and First Aid Certification earned with a Troop towards Venturing/Sea Scout advancement and dont expect a Scout to do these twice.

 

Eagle Service projects CAN NOT be used towards Venturing awards or the Sea Scout Quartermaster master award nor can service projects for these awards be used as an Eagle Service project.

A separate service project must be completed for each of these awards.

 

As to requirements that can be used towards both I am evaluating these on an individual basis depending on the Scout and/or the requirement.

 

An example is the requirement for Ordinary rank in Sea Scouts:

-Meet the requirements for the Swimming merit badge.

A Sea Scout that earned Swimming Merit Badge 3 years ago at summer camp with a Troop is going to have to show to myself (or an approved Consultant) that they can redo the requirements before I am going say that they have meet this.

 

Im doing the same with the swimming requirement for Apprentice (1st Class swimming requirement).

I have to witness every Sea Scout and Adult Leader pass the swimmers test to sail this summer even if they did this at summer camp last year.

One of the youth instructors I just had helping to teach BSA Lifeguard has expressed interested in joining the Ship.

I am not going to ask him to redo the swimming requirement.

Even though I didnt see him do the swimmers test I am confident that he meets this requirement.

 

As to the official response to:

 

Our Scoutmaster feels that if they earn credit through the crew it does not count towards any troop merit badge.

 

An SM has no say in what can and can not be used towards Merit Badge requirements.

This is up to the MBC to decide.

 

I find this a good reason for a Scout to use a MBC not associated with the troop and let them decide if the activities done in the Crew can be used towards the MB.

 

Unless the SM is also the Crew Advisor I dont see how they can enforce this with a Venturing Crew.

 

 

 

 

 

[emb021]

There are rules in Venturing regarding 'dual credit' (using work for multiple award), 'prior credit' (getting credit for prior work, usually restricted to things like have CPR certification), and the like.

 

This is stated in the Venturer Handbook/Ranger Guidebook (if you plan on being a Venturing leader, get this). It should also be stated in the Venturing Leader Manual (again, if you going to be a leader, get this too). AND it should ALSO be clearly stated in the Advancement Guidelines booklet (again, if you are any kind of scout leader, get this!).

 

I'm not going to re-iterate what the others have said. Its all good advice.

 

Finally, please note that Venturing and Venture are not interchangable terms. Venture is a separate program for boy scouts and has nothing to do with Venturing.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I think most have hit the high points, the passages taken from the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures book reads the following on the topics of Past and Multiple credit:

 

PAST CREDIT

All requirements for all awards require Venturers to do work as Venturers. As an example, they may have earned the Backpacking merit badge as a Boy Scout, but must do all that is required in the Ranger backpacking elective while registered as a Venturer. Some requirements may require some type of certification such as Scuba Open-Water Diver, American Red Cross Standard First Aid, or BSA Lifeguard.

This certification may be used regardless of when it was earned as long as the certification is still current.

 

MULTIPLE CREDIT

Venturers may receive multiple credit for requirements in Venturing, such as using an American Red Cross Emergency Response course for credit in the Ranger first aid course requirement and first aid elective, and the Silver first aid requirement. However, Venturers may not receive multiple credit when required to do a tabletop display or presentation. These must be done for each requirement that requires one. Members who are simultaneously members of a Boy Scout troop may receive credit for work toward Boy Scout advancement and Venturing advancement. An example would be getting dual credit for hikes for the Backpacking merit badge and for the Ranger backpacking elective, or for a

conservation project required in Boy Scouts and in Venturing.

Any male Venturer who has achieved the First Class rank as a Boy Scout in a troop or Varsity Scout in a team may continue working toward the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks up to his 18th birthday. He must meet the requirements as prescribed in the Boy Scout Handbook and the current Boy Scout Requirements book. Position of responsibility requirements may be met by the Venturer serving as president, vice president, secretary, or treasurer in his crew, or as boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper in his ship. The Scoutmaster conference will be conducted by the Advisor or Skipper. As the Venturer meets the requirements for the Star and Life ranks, a board of review is conducted by the crew or ship committee. The Eagle

board of review follows the procedure established by the local council.

Sea Scout advancements are approved by the ship's quarterdeck. In the case of the Quartermaster Award, the application is reviewed by the ship's committee with a member of the district advancement committee as chairman. Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition,

it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered

as a Venturer. All work on all Venturing advancement must be completed prior to the young person's 21st birthday.

 

[jr56]

I think I'm getting a different meaning to this question. If a boy is a first class scout and joins a Venture crew, he can earn merit badges in either program and continue working on his Eagle rank.

It doesn't matter which program the merit badge is earned in. Once the merit badge is earned, it's earned. It can be used toward his Eagle rank in either program. If a boy is in Venturing, and does a certain skill (a 50 mile backpacking trek for example) he can use that toward his backpaking merit badge, and any Venturing ranks it would apply for (Outdoor Bronze).

I don't know if that was what you wanted to know or not?

[ScoutNut]

The ONLY person who has any say in what is accepted for completion of a merit badge is the MERIT BADGE COUNSELOR. Not the SM, not the Crew Adviser, not the parents. If the counselor for a particular merit badge signs off on a requirement, it is completed. It does not matter where it was done, who was with the scout when it was done, or what uniform he was wearing when the requirement was done. The ONLY thing that counts is if the MB counselor accepts the work.

 

If it is the SM who is the MB counselor, then you should have a talk with your District Advancement Chair.

 

 

[diannasav]

I want to thank everyone for your input and I hope it keeps coming, I am getting a great deal of info from all of you. Every response has had valuable info.. This is my first entry to this forum and I'm glad I did. To answer one of your questions yes you are all answering my questions and I will forward a good majority of this info to our SM. Our troop is only in it's 4th year and Venturing is new to all of us, I have been involved the longest but not as a trained leader. I am waiting for an upcoming class to resolve that, but in our council we have to wait for Venturing Training since it is relatively new to our council as well (not quite sure why, but it is).

I think it is a great program and have tried to encourage our SM to work with the Venturing Advisor because the two programs can work together and support each other, at least that is my take on it, but he doesn't always agree. Maybe with some selective choice I will forward a good majority of this info to him with every hopes that it will help.

 

Again thanks for the continued responses and all your suggestions are great and appreciated.

[Beavah]

What about if a scout transfers from one troop to another do all his achievement, nights of camping, any achievement need to pass on to next troop or can the Scoutmaster decline using any previous advancements or achievements, if so what are they specifically.

 

Yah, I read this differently too, eh? Da biggest advice is "do what makes sense", eh? Taking Advanced First Aid class twice probably doesn't make sense. Doin' camping with the Crew rather than counting prior camping with the troop probably does make sense, 'cause troop campin' is a lot different. Either way, yeh shouldn't be goin' off to your District Advancement Chair or filin' protests or quotin' things at people. You should teach boys to work with adults to reach mutually agreed upon expectations. Nuthin' worse for a scoutin' program than a "little league parent."

 

Let me try a bunch of different scenarios to help sort it out.

 

Case 1: SM approves the boy for the MB and approves the counselor. Boy goes to the counselor. At that point, it is up to the counselor what prior work is accepted for badge requirements. It could be work done in the troop, in the crew, or on the boy's own. When finished, the boy gives the signed MB card to the troop, and the troop submits it to the council. The MB now counts for the boy, no matter whether he does his advancement to Eagle in the troop or crew. This same works in reverse, with the crew Advisor approving the MB and MBC, in which case the boy submits the badge to the crew, and the crew to the council. At that point, the badge counts for rank advancement in either program.

 

Case 2: The crew Advisor approves a MBC and a MB for the boy, and the boy does all the work to the MBC's satisfaction. Then the boy tries to submit the badge to the troop, and the SM goes "Huh?? I never approved that." It's OK if the SM says "no, you have to submit that through the crew, because it was approved by your crew advisor." It's probably OK if the troop accepts it and submits it, but it's not great, eh? The crew advisor and committee should be in the loop.

 

Case 3: The SM is the counselor for backpacking MB. The boy tries to use prior work done in the crew to meet some of the requirements. But the SM isn't sure, perhaps, that the requirements were met, or maybe that good LNT practices were used, or something. It is OK for the SM to not accept the work done in the crew, and to make the boy "re-do" that work. It's also OK for him to accept it. It's up to the counselor. This is why it's important when starting a MB to meet with the counselor and go over his/her expectations, so you know right from the beginning where you're at.

 

Case 4: A boy transfers in to a troop from another troop where he earned 1st Class. The SM thinks (correctly) that the old troop was an advancement mill, and recognizes that the boy is way behind compared to his same-rank peers in scoutcraft. The SM cannot force the boy to re-do First Class - once it is earned, it is earned. (though a savvy SM would find a way to do some review and refresher).

 

Case 5: A 2nd Class boy transfers in to a troop from another troop and has a signature for the CPR requirement for 1st Class, but hasn't yet earned 1st Class. Yah, there'll probably be some debate over this, but I think acceptin' this is at the discretion of the SM. The SM can accept it, or make the boy demonstrate the requirement again. (If there is some debate, let's spool it off, eh, so diannasav can still get things out of this thread ).(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[CrewMomma]

I am not sure how other Crews work their MB system but our Crew Advisor and our SM work well and keep in communication with eachother.If the SM see's some requirements signed off with our Crew Advisors initials on it, he pretty much knows that the Scout/Venturer has fulfilled that requirement.

[ASM915]

dianna,

 

Question 1)

Is the Crew an offshoot of the troop for the older scouts with the same CO as the troop, or is the Crew it's own entity with a different CO and not attached to the troop in any way?

If the Crew and the Troop are attached, there shouldn't be a problem using the requirements for dual purposes.

If the Crew and troop are not attached, the SM may feel he/the Troop is being gypped by your son being involved with a Crew fearing your son will spend more time there then with the Troop and that he is going to lose your son permanently to the Crew. I know a few Crews in our Council have instituted the rule that you must stay involved with you troop if you wish to be part of the Crew.

 

Question 2)

Was your son a member of the Crew and the Troop at the same time when he was earning the merit badges?

If yes, they count both in both programs. Usually the Venturing requirements are more rigorous then the merit badge requirements, so there shouldn't be a problem with them being used for the MB. A completed MB may not meet all of the Venturing requirements, therefore your son will have to finish completing the rest of the Venturing requirements for rank.

If no, then he may have to repeat requirements for the program that he is new to.

 

For Venturing POR, he may also use Den Chief, or an elected youth officer of a religious or school organization for Silver Award.

 

Crew 21, OGE or Beaveah, a question. For Silver and Gold it states "Earn one Venturing Bronze Award". Does this mean earn an additional Bronze Award after the first one for each of the next two ranks, or does the first one count for the next two?

 

[CNYScouter]

Im not sure what you mean by:

Does this mean earn an additional Bronze Award after the first one for each of the next two ranks, or does the first one count for the next two?

 

In Venturing there are not ranks like in the Boy Scouts.

Sea Scouts is a separate program that does have ranks (Apprentice, Ordinary, Able, Quartermaster).

 

For the Silver award you first have to earn the Gold Award in which a Venturer has to earn one of the bronze awards (Arts and Hobbies, Outdoor, Sea Scouting (same as Ordinary Rank), Sports, or Religious Life).

You do not have to earn another Bronze award for the Silver award.

 

There are more advanced awards that can be earned above the Bronze Awards:

Outdoor Bronze is half the Ranger Award

Sea Scouting Bronze is half the Quartermaster Award

Sports Bronze is half the Quest Award

Religious Life Bronze is half the Trust Award

 

You can find the requirements for these awards at:

http://www.scouting.org/venturing/awards

 

[ScoutNut]

Thanks CNYScouter, all this talk about Venturing advancement & ranks had my head spinning! I thought maybe I nodded off and missed a Venturing program change!

 

diannasav, here are some sites that might help -

 

This is BSA National's Venturing site.

http://www.scouting.org/venturing/home.html

 

BSA's Online Training Center - Take Venturing Fast Start, Venturing Youth Protection (it would not hurt to take regular YP also), & Venturing Crew Orientation.

http://olc.scouting.org/

 

Beavah, I advocated contacting the District Advancement Chair, for 2 reasons, neither of which had anything to do with being a "little league parent". First of all, if diannasav has any questions on advancement (which he obviously does) the person to get the answers from would be the District Advancement Chair. Second, if someone has a question about the practices of a merit badge counselor, the District Advancement Chair is also the person to ask. No one is saying that the boys, their parents, or their leaders should be overruling anyone or forcing their perspective on anyone.

 

I realize we are all founts of endless wisdom, but we don't really know what is going on, how this Venturing Crew is set up, or what the problems really are. The best place to get good answers is from BSA literature & the best place to ask questions is the appropriate District person.

 

Also, I firmly believe that there are bad merit badge counselors out there because leaders don't want to "be goin' off" to the District folks. Well, as inconvenient as it is, the District Advancement Chairs are not psychic. Without input from their District members they have no way of knowing if a MB Counselor is adding or changing requirements, or if he is doing a good job or not. If we, as leaders, know of a MB Counselor who is not not doing their job we have a responsibility to do more than simply not recommending them as counselors to our boys. We have a responsibility to give our District Advancement Chair a heads up and have them look into it so that some other boy does not get shortchanged.

 

As for your Case #5, (sorry, but YOU did bring it into the discussion), I do not see it as the SM having the discretion to accept another SM's sign off on a rank requirement or not. It has been signed off. However, a good Troop will never let old skills sit idle. In order to remember & perfect our skills they must be used - often. In your scenario of CPR skills, all of the scouts who have had CPR signed off in their books should be the ones teaching it to the younger ones, running the CPR station at a Troop First Aid skills meeting, & helping Webelos earn their activity pin. Telling a boy you are not accepting anything you did not personally sign off is one way, making sure all of the boys are using, & perfecting, all of the skills they have learned is a much better way.

 

 

 

[emb021]

"There are more advanced awards that can be earned above the Bronze Awards:

Outdoor Bronze is half the Ranger Award "

 

While the Outdoor Bronze IS half of the Ranger Award, saying that the other Bronze Awards are half of the other 'expert' Awards is incorrect.

 

The Ranger Awards is comprised of 8 core requirements, and several elective. Get 4 core and 2 electives, gets you Outdoor Bronze. Get all 8 core and a total of 4 (2 more) gets you Ranger.

 

"Sea Scouting Bronze is half the Quartermaster Award "

 

No. Sea Scout Bronze uses the requirements of the Ordinary rank. As such, its 'half way' to Quartermaster, not half of the award. A Sea Scout (and only a Sea Scout) must then earn Able and then Quartermaster.

 

"Sports Bronze is half the Quest Award "

"Religious Life Bronze is half the Trust Award "

 

No. These Bronze awards are required for these awards, but they are not half the requirments. There are further requirements to earn them. Doing hald the requirements of Quest or Trust will not get you these Bronze awards. They don't work that way.