If The Requirement Isn't Completed

[evmori]

Beg all you want but training a dog is in no way the same as teaching kids anything. Dogs don't think. They react based on instinct. Humans, on the other hand, have the ability to discern. They can determine right from wrong, but only if they are taught the difference. A dog will do whatever you train it to do regardless of right or wrong.

 

Sometimes telling someone what to do will help teach them, too. Depends on the situation & how the telling is done.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[LongHaul]

Hunt asked for an actual example and I have one. Two years ago we had some scouts participate in a Merit Badge Day at a local Navy Base. One of the badges offered was Law, the MBC was a Naval officer. The man spent 2 hours telling war stories about what it was like to be in the military police and his time in Naval intelligence. The actual requirements for the merit badge were never even discussed during this time. All the Blue Cards were returned signed as complete. When the SM and TC heard of this they arranged for a lawyer, who was not a MBC, to talk with the boys about the requirements before the badges were awarded. Two parents came forward and complained because advancement was being held up. Their position was the boys attended the class in good faith and if the MBC failed to do the job the boys should not be punished by having the badges withheld. One parent said "If I sign up for training and attend the class but the staff does not cover the correct material I should not be penalized and asked to give up more of my time to retake the class." Two boys took the badge and the rest met with the lawyer before receiving theirs. Not being SM for this particular troop I had no say in the matter.

LongHaul

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

OK, I have read everything in this column and I am under the illusion that by doing so it gives me a right to enter a reply. I can do this because I am well versed on what everyone has said and I would like to plug a few holes.

 

Well, I did skim some of the entries but focused on others because I already know what some will say and others can simply be discounted.

 

No, let me back up, I read many of the entries and skimmed several. I didnt take any notes before I finished so my memory is a little sketchy.

 

Well, no, I had my mind made up before I finished reading that I knew what I was going to write.

 

There really isnt a rule that says that I cant just spout off, so here I go.

 

FB

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

It took me time to read and summarize, so here is what I found.

 

BP felt that it was important to reward a Scout for mastering a skill.

 

Advancement allows a Scout to move ahead and learn in his own way and speed.

 

A Scout must be active in his unit to demonstrate leadership by learning and then teaching the skills mastered.

 

Advancement is an orderly way that progressively challenges a Scout to become a better camper/hiker/Scout. Most information is built upon information that was learned earlier.

 

The Scout learns a skill in an active, hands-on way. The Scout should learn and do what is written.

 

The Scout is tested to show that he has mastered the skill and then the Scout is signed off on that skill.

 

The Scout and the Scoutmaster conference about the skill(s), progress and goals of the Scout. This insight allows the SM to understand fully the resources the Scout brings to the unit.

 

The Scout is reviewed (BOR), not retested, to make sure that he has met all of the requirements for that skill. They may suggest ways that the Scout can get more out of Scouting.

 

The Scout is recognized.

 

Unless someone has different books, then it looks like the Scout, MB Counselor, the SM, and the BOR are making sure that the requirements were completed. It appears that learning is important even in Scouting. FB

 

[Beavah]

Unless someone has different books, then it looks like the Scout, MB Counselor, the SM, and the BOR are making sure that the requirements were completed. It appears that learning is important even in Scouting.

 

Nobody has different books, Fuzz.

 

Some people have different capabilities and competencies. The Naval Officer LongHaul mentions clearly wasn't capable or competent as an instructor/MBC for the badge. We all see dat pretty frequently with MBC's or "assistants" at summer camps. Most councils don't even pay lip service to MBC screening & training.

 

Some people also have different ethics. Da parents LongHaul mentions who talk about how they feel they've done their job if they sat in training but didn't learn anything (to help their company/colleagues/coworkers or to improve themselves) are an example. They're lookin' for the fastest way to "get something" and don't value learning to be able to "give something."

 

The challenge for all of us who try to use the Scoutin' program to teach kids both life skills and lifelong values is what to do when we hit these two obstacles.... adults who fail at, or don't care about, helping kids learn skills successfully (and then fudge signoffs), and adults who promote values contrary to those we're tryin' to teach.

 

It's tough because these cases are never the kids' choice/fault, and we hate to hold kids back because of our weaknesses (whether on a MB or on a bike trip...). But at the same time, if we give in very often, the values we're trying to teach get replaced by other values - we become a badge entitlement program, and our message to the kids is the same as LongHaul's two problem parents.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

One of the problems I have seen on this Forum and with myself is that many times we tend to believe we are doing the right things when we simply did not bother to read the directions.

 

At my work, we have an Operating Procedures Manual that is 50% loosely constructed and 50% restrictive. People tend to follow the loose construct more than the strictly written portions. Sometimes the outcomes don't fit the codes and therefore violates the intent and the person is found to be in error. Since we have monitors that visit, it is important to be knowledgeable. All a person has to do is read but that seldom happens.

 

I have suggested that we write protocols for the 70% of the work that has some degree of regularity to quicken access/reference. This would clarify most of what we do. The other 30% would need to check by reading. All problems may not be eliminated but the really dumb ones would be reduced. It is easier to ask forgiveness when complexities are involved. This would cost little or nothing.

 

The next idea was to have a computerized Help-Desk that can be accessed by key-word search and then any remaining questions would be forwarded to experienced employees on a rotating basis. This means little or no cost to anyone.

 

Of course, our Administration had the "deer in the headlight look" when this was suggested. I suppose it is easier to count mistakes rather than to try and fix it. FB

 

 

 

[Hunt]

"Two parents came forward and complained because advancement was being held up. Their position was the boys attended the class in good faith and if the MBC failed to do the job the boys should not be punished by having the badges withheld. One parent said "If I sign up for training and attend the class but the staff does not cover the correct material I should not be penalized and asked to give up more of my time to retake the class.""

 

I'd be curious to know what the boys in question said about this BEFORE their meddling parents got involved...

[Fuzzy Bear]

According to what I found, the SM and the BOR could have known after the fact. There would be no punishment involved but the Scouts would be expected to complete the requirements of the MB. No more, no less. That is not a punishment but is part of the initial agreement.

 

Now if the Scouts lied to the SM and the BOR about not completing the requirements, then punishment should be considered for lying.

 

Hopefully, the meddling parents are part of the TC and they have read what they are supposed to do which is to make sure the requirements have been met. FB

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

An extrapolation for you all...

 

Let's say we (Adult BSA Leaders) take a BSA training class and it didn't cover all the material, or did a poor job conveying the information.

 

Should we decline accepting OUR signoff card & retake the class (hopefully from a different trainer)? Or should we take the card and do our best to finish up on our own as needed?

 

NC

 

[FireKat]

"Two parents came forward and complained because advancement was being held up. Their position was the boys attended the class in good faith and if the MBC failed to do the job the boys should not be punished by having the badges withheld. One parent said "If I sign up for training and attend the class but the staff does not cover the correct material I should not be penalized and asked to give up more of my time to retake the class.""

I am curious if these parents would go to a doctor who sat in classes but the staff does not cover the correct material and still got his MD?

Should they get MB if they sleep/play/daydream in an over crowded MB class just because they were there?

I still like small groups with more time than a week.

FK

[evmori]

Two parents came forward and complained because advancement was being held up. Their position was the boys attended the class in good faith and if the MBC failed to do the job the boys should not be punished by having the badges withheld. One parent said "If I sign up for training and attend the class but the staff does not cover the correct material I should not be penalized and asked to give up more of my time to retake the class.

 

This is the main reason I deplore MB Colleges or anything like them.

 

So if the boy signed up for the MB & sat in a room & no one showed up & he received a completed MB card for that merit badge, would they feel the same? How does the Scout feel about this?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

For all MBs there is only one agreement and that is to complete the requirements as stated.

 

Q: Then who is holding up the advancement?

 

The Scouts are the ones holding up the advancement if the Scouts have not completed the requirements.

 

Q: Why are you blaming the Scouts and not the MB counselor?

 

The Scouts should have the MB book and should know that each requirement should be checked off. That is the agreement.

 

Q: What if the MB counselor tells the Scouts that a requirement is not necessary?

 

The Scouts have agreed to complete each requirement. That is their job.

 

Q: Isn't it disrespectful to say otherwise?

 

A Scout is expected to be Brave and to be Trustworthy. Simply stating the facts of the agreement is not disrespectful.

 

Q: What if the MB counselor says that it is too much work?

 

The Scouts simply state that it is the agreement and that they will need to find another counselor if she is unable to complete the requirements with them.

 

Q: What if the MB counselor says that one requirement is too dangerous?

 

The Scouts can take the person's word for it and let the SM and the BOR know the reason behind the deficiency.

 

The Scouts need to understand that when something is dangerous to leave it alone and let others take care of it. That is also their job.

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Venividi]

Fuzzy Bear,

 

I like your Q & A's. It brings back into focus that our aims are to develop character & citizenship in our scouts, and that means expecting our charges to live up to the scout oath and law, and reward them when they do so. Advancement can be a powerful motivator, and works best when positioned as a reward for growth in character and citizenship (i.e., scout spirit), rather than as a check mark on getting the right number of merit badges (by whatever means).

Have high expectations - scouts will strive to meet them. Have low expectations - they will meet those also.

 

[SSScout]

I like that. It bears repeating...

 

"Have high expectations - scouts will strive to meet them. Have low expectations - they will meet those also."

 

Perhaps this applies to the Adult Leaders also?

[Eagle76]

I think I'd like to tell a little story. You all may find it irrelevant and a waste of time, but I think it touches on a number of points that have been raised: not meeting requirements, the responsibility of the Scout vs. adult, and the bigger picture of the aims of Scouting. Take it for whatever it's worth. Numerous points will violate today's policies/procedures, if not those in place at the time. Please don't dwell on them.

 

In my Scouting youth, we often needed to find our own merit badge counselor. Needing a counselor for Citizenship in the Nation, I recruited my 8th grade social studies teacher. I studied my merit badge pamphlet, tried my best to learn the material, met with him one-on-one to discuss various things in the requirements, and in the end he signed off my merit badge card. However, in the end I was somewhat dis-satisifed and unsettled because he hadn't tested me thoroughly on every item down the line, and there were some things I didn't clearly understand, like the Electoral College. What did I do? I turned in my blue card and received the merit badge. What else could I do? I was just a kid, my teacher was an adult. Who was I to tell him what to do?

 

A year or so later, I was sitting in a conference room on the 22nd floor of a downtown skyscraper with three strange men, having my Eagle Board of Review. One them asked me to describe how a president was elected. I talked about the popular vote, how the winner of each state got a number of votes equal to the number of representatives plus senators, and then it went something like this...

 

Me: Then comes a part I don't quite understand. The colleges somehow vote for president.

Him: Are you talking about the Electoral College?

Me: Yes! That's it! But I don't really understand it.

 

He then proceeded to explain to me what the Electoral College was all about, how the Electors actually met to cast the votes for president, and the election wasn't truly complete until then, no matter when the TV networks declared a winner.

 

A little later, to my great relief they congratulated me on becoming an Eagle Scout, rather than withholding it because I clearly hadn't understood one of the things I was supposed to learn for a required merit badge.

 

This whole episode was burned into my mind, and the electoral process so intrigued me, that several years later I wrote a paper for my college political science class on the Presidential Election process. In the end, I probably understand the process far better than the typical Scout who earns his Citizenship in the Nation merit badge.(This message has been edited by Eagle76)(This message has been edited by Eagle76)