If The Requirement Isn't Completed

[evmori]

The final authority should rest with the Scout.

It really is his choice to do what he thinks is right.

 

Since we are the be teaching the Scouts to make ethical decisions, shouldn't we be steering the Scouts in this direction? What if the Scout says "I don't care if I didn't do the requirement. The counselor signed the card as complete and that's good enough for me." Are we doing our job? I don't think. And while we might have to "give" the Scout the MB, I think there is a Scout Spirit issue at hand.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

If the boys ethical choice is to take an award without having done the requirements for the award, then the adult leaders have not yet fulfilled their mission to prepare him to make ethical choices. That doesnt get rectified by taking away the award or making rules. We dont fulfill the mission by making rules or telling boys do this, dont do that. Rather, we teach the values found in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. There are proven methods for teaching those values.

[Beavah]

Yah...

 

Da BSA policy and guidelines are that a Badge is awareded for "what a Scout can do, not for what he has done." So it's supposed to be about learnin' and retention. I think we all agree that recognizin' a kid for his First Aid knowledge if he can't do First Aid is ridiculous, and darned embarrassin' for the kid (or worse, a reinforcement of "slide by on what you can get away with" behavior).

 

If a boy hasn't learned he hasn't earned and doesn't Merit public recognition. The blue card procedures are just paperwork in service of the goals and principles.

 

Proper response is what Jim suggests, eh? A friendly conversation and apology to the boy for adult failures, followed by help to have him learn and earn "for real" - because it's fun, and it's da right thing to do, too.

 

And then a quiet execution of the MBC who would cheat a kid.

 

 

[dan]

Beavah

I believe you are incorrect when you say "BSA policy and guidelines are that a Badge is awarded for "what a Scout can do, not for what he has done." Can you tell me where I can find this information?

 

I have been reading this and thinking no matter what happens the scout gets the short end of the stick. If he is awarded the badge he may have missed out on doing something that could have changed his thought process on what he wants to do in the future, like what he may take as a major in college or save someones life. The scout got shorted by a counselor. If we say nope you have to do the the badge again if he could call the council up and most likely he would be awarded the badge OR he could get frustrated and say why should I be better than a counselor and give up on scouts, may not quit but just slide on through doing the minimum without enjoying it.

After reading what Beavah wrote I thought why not awarded him the badge but have a talk with him and see if he could review some of the things that where missed with the counselor? Use some time at a troop meeting or campout to review it and to make sure he understands what he has missed. Or maybe have him teach the skill to other scouts, if it is something like First Aid that other scouts need to learn also.

[Eamonn]

In the real world.

I like to think I know the Scouts I serve and that they know me.

If a Scout is supposed to know or have done something and he or she doesn't know or hasn't done what was to be done.

I'd smile. Shake my head.

He or She would smile back and we would revisit the whatever.

While at times I can make a fuss and carry on, I try really hard to save that for things that are really important. - Normally issues that are about safety.

The age group I deal with mostly 16 and 17 years old do not like being told that they HAVE too.

I have had Scouts complain about doing something. When I say "No one told you that you had to do it." The answer I get is "Yes, but you gave me that look!!"

 

I really wish I was better at trying to explain where I'm coming from.

I think all of us would agree that signing off on a requirement that hasn't been met is just plain wrong.

The easy way to fix it would be to tell the Scout that it was wrong and that he has to redo or do whatever to cover /meet the requirement.

After we have made a statement like that, if the Scout were to refuse our backs would be against the wall.

Looking at the aims of Scouting.

While each Scouting Organization or Association specifies the Aim of Scouting a little differently and each section might word the aims a little differently at the end of the day it boils down that the aims are:

Building Character

Fostering Citizenship

Promoting Fitness .

While I don't want to get off topic, I do want to mention that these are not the reasons why Scouts become Scouts.

 

I happen to think that the BSA at times is guilty of over using the word Character.

After all Character is a fairly generic term. It means the combination of qualities or features that distinguish one person or group from another.

Very often when I use the word Character, I'm talking about someone who makes me laugh. But maybe that's just me?

Of course that isn't what we are talking about when we say that Scouting builds Character.

In Scouting we are talking about a about the qualities of a person that makes him self-sufficient, motivated, charitable, concerned for others, and willing to accept the responsibilities placed before him.

While discipline or disciplined might well be in that mix. I don't really think that we are really looking for people who can't think for themselves and only do things because they are told to do them.

Scouting aims to build self-confidence, problem solving, compassion, acceptance of personal responsibility, and leadership skills within each Scout. This allows the individual boy well prepared for life in an adult world.

Fostering Citizenship;Regardless of what country a Scout lives in, there are qualities and responsibilities expected of every citizen.Scouting aims to teach each Scout the rights and responsibilities of citizenship and provide him with real experience in citizenship.

The end result of such training should be individuals who know what it means to be a citizen, what is expected of them, and what they can expect in return. They are prepared to participate in society and in many cases become leaders in their community or profession.

Promote Fitness;Being fit means, of course, much more than being muscular or athletic. Scouting believes that quality citizens with good character should also maintain a good level of physical and mental fitness. That doesn't mean Scouting expects every Scout to be athletic and scholarly. What it means is that a Scout learns to challenge himself physically and mentally, and to remain fit in order to meet that challenge.

Scouts experience a high level of activity, and are challenged to do many things that require physical and mental fitness. Through these experiences, the Scout learns to enjoy being fit. He learns the dangers of becoming sedentary and complacent, and of being tempted by lifestyles that lead to mental and physical weakness.

Scouting's aims represent the ultimate goal of the organization for each Scout. The aims aren't the path we need to take, or the blueprint for our success. The aims are the end result, the destination of our journey.

In Scouting, the aims represent the result we want from the process of Scouting. This is our ideal. We need to keep an eye on the aims, but most of our attention and effort should be on the steps we take toward that goal. That means it's important to know what the aims of Scouting are, but our main concern should be the methods of Scouting.

The methods of the Scouting movement are the means through which the aims are achieved:

Scouting Ideals

Patrols

Outdoors

Advancement

Personal Growth

Adult Association

Leadership Development

Uniform.

It is worth mentioning that:

The aims of the movement can be attained without these methods, but it wouldn't be Scouting. Likewise, these methods can produce quality individuals without the aims. But, again that wouldn't be Scouting. Scouting is in fact a combination of these aims and these methods.

When I think about the question:

"If The Requirement Isn't Completed"?

I have to think about the ideals of Scouting.

The ideals are those outlined in the Scout Oath and Law, the Scout Motto and Slogan, and the concept of "Scout Spirit". The ideals define what a Scout should strive to be: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, mentally awake, morally straight, physically fit, always prepared.

This method permeates everything Scouts do, defining acceptable behavior, challenging the Scout to do his best, and even to do better than his best. Scout spirit describes the level of commitment a Scout has toward these ideals, and challenges him to do what needs to be done.

Some people might say the answer to the lies in here?

I tend to agree, but I see the Oath and Law as a personal commitment.

I think maybe the answer is to be found in Personal Growth.Much of what we do in Scouting involves boys facing unfamiliar territory and learning to cope with it. This is what we call personal growth,this isn't just about longer hikes or that sort of stuff. It is about Scouts looking at themselves and taking on greater responsibilities and challenges. He also learns to make real decisions.

The answer can also be found in Adult Association.Adults provide the safety net that allows Scouting to work. Through guidance and support adults in Scouting create the environment the Scouts need to take advantage of these methods. The Scout learns to work with other adults and develops the skills needed to navigate the adult world.

In Scouting we are in the business of building character and we do that by presenting challenges for youth and helping them develop the confidence to meet those challenges. As each challenge is met, the Scout's confidence grows, as does his self-esteem. It is the process of trying and failing then trying and succeeding that does that.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

"I really wish I was better at trying to explain where I'm coming from."

 

Eamonn, you're coming through loud and clear. Well said. I think it was Barry that said something to the effect that we sometimes get muddled up in the details. It's good to be reminded once again what the big picture is all about.

 

One thing I've learned over the years - when in doubt, refer to the Methods, Aims, and Mission.

 

Frank

[evmori]

Character is what you do when no one is watching.

 

It's all about character. Poor character leads to poor ethical decisions.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah]

I believe you are incorrect when you say "BSA policy and guidelines are that a Badge is awarded for "what a Scout can do, not for what he has done." Can you tell me where I can find this information?

 

Advancement Rules and Regulations, Article X

 

General Principles

 

Clause 1: Education is the chief function of the Scouting movement and it shall be the basis of the advancement program... In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploration.

 

 

In the ACP&P guidelines book discussion of the Rules & Regs mentioned above, we are we are told in BOLD...

 

A badge is recognition of what a young person is able to do, not merely a reward for what he or she has done. (p. 3, #33088D).

 

In the Boy Scouting section of ACP&P, this is repeated:

 

"A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done." (p. 23). The section goes on to mention that the first role of a BOR is "To make sure the work has been learned..." (p. 29).

 

So da official rules and regulations establish proficiency as the expectation and requirement for badges and advancement, because education is our primary goal, and units through BOR's are supposed to verify that learning to proficiency has been accomplished. That's the program. The rest is just ways we try to administer the program to be fair and accurate.

 

That makes sense, eh? What young man of character would be willing to accept and wear an award that did not represent his capability? What adult (aside from the most unconscionably lazy or mis-informed) would cheat a boy by giving him rewards for short-term parroted performance rather than genuine long-term learning and growth? And I'd assume nobody would deliberately undermine the program by givin' a boy a badge he hadn't really earned.

 

 

[Beavah]

If we say nope you have to do the the badge again if he could call the council up and most likely he would be awarded the badge OR he could get frustrated and say why should I be better than a counselor and give up on scouts, may not quit but just slide on through doing the minimum without enjoying it.

 

I think if yeh really think these are options for a boy then you have to take a good hard look at your program, your adult leaders, and your use of Adult Relationships Method.

 

Boys don't want to get a badge from council. They want to get a badge from their troop, that is recognized and respected by their peers and the adult leaders they trust and respect.

 

Boys don't get frustrated and give up on scouts because of being expected to really meet a challenge. They get frustrated and give up on scouts because of real problems with the program, and especially with poor adult leadership.

 

Boys don't just slide by and do the minimum unless that's a habit that the adults in the unit have allowed and encouraged.

 

Using the Advancement Method as designed to build proficiency (and through proficiency, confidence and leadership) is a good thing. If you're findin' that you're gettin' negative outcomes, you have to look at strengthening OTHER aspects of your program, not weakening your use of Advancement Method.

 

[Hunt]

"What if the Scout says "I don't care if I didn't do the requirement. The counselor signed the card as complete and that's good enough for me."

 

This, and comments in several additional posts make me wonder how likely this is to happen in reality, at least with respect to a significant flaw (like not doing the work at all). I suspect not very often, if ever. Have any of you actually faced this situation, and if so, what did the Scout in question actually say or do? The only time I encountered something similar was with a boy who had erroneously been given a BOR at camp, and rank had been signed off despite the fact that not enough Eagle-required MBs had been completed. This wasn't caught until after the advancement report was sent in--several months later. In that case, the boy readily agreed that the records had to be changed, and that he needed to do the requirements to complete the rank properly. Have others had conflicts with scouts over this kind of problem?

[Eamonn]

Rory has just retrieved one of OJ's socks from the laundry room.

A sock that didn't need to be retrieved.

I as his Lord and Master, don't want him to have the sock.

My options are:

*Fight with him and do the tug of war thing.

This will or could result in the sock ending up with holes in it.

* Give him a whack and tell him what a bad dog he is.

To date I have never whacked him as I think this is what makes dogs mean.

* Bribe him by offering him a treat and when he opens his mouth grab the sock.

This would work but what happens when I don't have any treats at hand?

* Ask him to "Give". He has been trained to give up what he has in his mouth and in return I tell him what a good boy he is.

Of course life would be a lot nicer if he hadn't retrieved the sock in the first place.

He gives (gave) up the sock, because we have a good relationship, not because he is scared of me or because I'm going to bribe him.

Of course the MBC should never have signed off on the requirement. Yes the guy needs a good swift kick in the pants.

But the Scout is not to blame.

What happens next is up to the Troop Leadership.

If you do an inventory of what options are open and look at what Scouting is supposed to be all about, what are the options?

Eamonn.

[Eagledad]

Wow! Eamonn, that was really good. I wish we had a course to teach that kind of scouitng stuff, but I'm afraid that Wisdom 101 is a prerequisite and that takes time.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

If you do an inventory of what options are open and look at what Scouting is supposed to be all about, what are the options?

 

I may just be thick, but I think folks have been pretty consistent in tone and substance of suggestions:

 

Meet with the boy

Talk about honor

Explain the requirements

Ask if / show they were not met

Apologize for the adult failure

Help the boy find a good counselor to complete the work (if the boy desires)

Maybe ask the boy to help you write the letter to the camp director.

 

Easy, eh?

 

The only issue of difference is in what to do if the boy says somethin' like "Go eat cow pies. I scammed that MB counselor and you can't do anything about it." I agree with Hunt, that's just an empty hypothetical, at least in 99% of the cases. Heck, 'round here, most of the boys self-report problems long before the adults catch on. But if a scout ever did cop such an attitude, then yeh need to respond to that like the poor scout spirit it is.

 

How you respond depends too much on other things about the boy, your relationships, your troop culture, etc. for anybody here to offer good advice. But I expect for most of us it doesn't include lying on an Advancement Report.

 

 

 

[evmori]

Training a dog & training a boy are not even close to being the same thing. You can train a dog to urinate when you say give if you want to! Dogs don't have ethics! Just watch one when company comes over!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

"Training a dog & training a boy are not even close to being the same thing. "

I have to beg to differ.

Sure we train them to do different things.

But both dogs and boys respond well to love, affection, caring and consistency.

Hopefully Boys will learn more than dogs.

Dogs don't have ethics.

But if someone is always going to tell the boy what he has to do, does he need ethical thinking?

Both Rory and Joe are very well behaved when we have company. Next time your passing stop in for an adult beverage and I'll prove it.

Eamonn.