Dedicated Dad

Sorry OGE, I didnt mean to assume I knew what you knew and when you knew it. I should have known that you wouldnt ask a question you would have known when its known you should have known. I apologize. No I didnt know that Jesus forgave the food laws, when did he do this? It couldnt have been when he was alive as the reson for the food laws still existed long long after his Ascension. Good point, and you are correct. You see, you appear to have really known more than you claimed have to know and when you knew it. Busted! HeheheJesus came as a Jew to his own people, we should expect that he would uphold the teachings and the old covenants during his lifetime. Jesus demonstrated that the Old Testament itself pointed to him as the Messiah and was the fulfillment and embodiment of the Holy Scriptures. He did not change anything until his redemptive work was complete and, of course, he did imply during his ministry that things would change in the futureand that is an important point. The people of God would no longer worship at the temple in Jerusalem, but they would worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:21-24). They were no longer defined by a national covenant, but defined by faith in Christ. They would no longer keep the Law of Moses but the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Christians are not under the old covenant, which is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

Do you mean to tell me that I've been wasting my time arguing with a guy that is stealing other peoples words? For crying out loud! It seems you were able to use quotes elsewhere in your posts. Give me a break. Yes CJ, you have. As DD has exclaimed occasionally - Please read my previous post. R7, dont bother, TJ has proven over and over he is not capable of an honest exchange of debate, let his own words speak for his character and agenda. Hes said more than enough to corrupt himself and his intentions. ... I would answer the question by posing the same question another way...Answering a question with a question? TJ youre a real piece of work, you know that? I have always wondered about the following passages I am open to explanationsOGE, if you went to seminary for three years I for the life of me cant understand how you could ask such a question. You know well and good that the bonds of Jewish Law and ritual (not morals) in the first testament were forgiven by Jesus. These particular laws are like our liberal modern day laws that protect people from themselves. Shellfish, under cooked meat and especially pork posed great health risks from Salmonella and Botulism.

Oh, Yah! Good goin to Gary hey! This was for you guys up nort. http://www.homestead.com/cameronwis/WisDictionary.html

I was looking for a donation link for the K of C Holy Trinity Council 3413 and they dont have one on their web site. So heres the home page link, if you cant make a donation, a phone call of encouragement Im sure would be appreciated. http://www.mdkofc.org/holytrinity/default.htm R7, I thought you were near by. BTW, did Terry forward my email to you?

Bump to Glenn and Ed

How can you say you are friendly, courteous and kind when you read your postings? OGE, youre welcome to debate evil with kindness, IMHO the tenets of scouting wont mean much anymore if the worst for scouting happens. How can you purport to follow the path of Baden-Powell or defend his life's work when you use such tactics? These arent tactics, they are in the most part, the best IMHO descriptive definitions (sounds etc) to convey my point with enthusiasm and meaning. If you are offended, I honestly and humbly apologize. I hope that you can appreciate that much of the rhetoric I respond to is infinitely more offensive to me and I personally characterize it as profane. Terry says the standard is what you would say around the campfire face to face, I hope you can agree that if it came to this subject I would express myself no differently. BTW, I see many ojections to name-calling. I hope these are not aimed at me because all of my descriptions are directed toward the act and not the person. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

The fact that I found two in an article on a gay site makes them irrelevant? Nope, your agenda is crystal! I agreed with that in my previous post when I said "closeted homosexual" Your terminology was inaccurate, if you meant repressed Ill concede your mistake that disproves that he was homosexual? Or bisexual? Wow, it just gets better the more you write. Now hes a bisexual huh? Again, have you no shame? I just hope all the silent Scouters can appreciate your unsubstantiated innuendo and debasement of B-P, its ridiculous. (Of course, B-P was in his mid 50s when he finally married Olave, a girl in her 20s and his relationship with her was the first relationship with any female noted in any of his volumes of diaries throughout his life.) What a conspiracy theorist you are, let it go already. In that era it wasnt uncommon to marry well under your age. Further, if you bothered to read B-Ps take on promiscuity it should be admirable that she was his first. Isnt that what we should be teaching our kids? Who or what is the "standard bearer" for your statement that homosexuality is immoral and should not be allowed in Scouting? Its not a who or a what, it is an intrinsic truth that existed before religion and from the time of our creation. Didn't you bother to read anything Ive written? You're trying so desperately to typecast me as a radical gay activist (I suppose this is not inconsistent with your desire to typecast in general). I suppose the thinking is, if you can link me to gay activism, then you will discredit me by association. Uhh no youre doing a beautiful job of that yourself. I haven't "lifted" my arguments from anyone... Heheheno? Except your plagiarism from GAYSCRIBE! Im honestly laughing hardnow reaching for a rag to clean the milk off the monitor which just shot out my nose.

Boy Scouts of all ages exceed 'expectations' Pledge: A troop in Severna Park was formed 24 years ago to help people succeed despite their disabilities. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Jackie Powder Sun Staff Originally published February 12, 2002 The members of Boy Scout Troop 216 don't tell stories around the campfire or go on 50-mile weekend hikes. It may take two years of work to earn a citizenship merit badge, and it's unlikely that anyone in this troop will make Eagle Scout before the age of 40. But few Scouts wear their uniforms more proudly. Created 24 years ago to offer Scouting to the disabled, Troop 216 gathers twice a month in the Knights of Columbus hall on Ritchie Highway. There, volunteers pass on Scouting's practical skills and timeless values to the 19 Boy Scouts who range in age from 16 to 65. Many have Down syndrome. One boy has a neurological disorder that requires him to wear a helmet during any physical activity. Another member is a former college history professor who lost his short-term memory in a car accident more than 20 years ago. When not in this meeting hall in Severna Park, they're frequently perceived and treated as outsiders. But here, wearing their Boy Scout uniforms- some decorated with more than 20 merit badges - they belong. "We do all the Boy Scout things, we just do it slower," said James Dunne, 67, the troop's Scoutmaster for the past seven years. "You give them a little time, a little space and they'll get there. They're all loving people, and every one of them is trying hard the best they can in life. They're happy and proud to wear the uniform." What they learn makes a difference in their lives. Robert Szuba's Scouting skills made it possible for the 34-year-old senior troop patrol leader to take part in a moving ceremony at his father's funeral last year. At one of the troop's summer camping excursions, 38-year-old Kevin Sweany made a leather key chain imprinted with the Scout insignia for his father. Matthew McClain, 35, loves Scouting so much that sometimes he wears his full dress uniform to church and to his job at a Rite Aid in Edgewater. "It has become a family for him, an extension of his family," said Ruth McClain, his mother. "It's a safe environment for him to grow in his relationships with his peers, to have goals and to have success stories." Troop 216 is one of a few in the Baltimore area for members with special needs. Other troops for disabled Scouts exist, but they're generally affiliated with special education schools. The Holy Trinity Knights of Columbus has sponsored the troop since 1978, when Eagle Scout Dan Pazdersky and Charlie Smith, Jim George and John Pazdersky - three members of the Catholic service organization - started it. Most of the troop's members can't read, write or count. They come from different parts of Anne Arundel County and live in group homes or with family members. Despite their limitations, they camp several times a year at Broad Creek in Harford County, attend the Boy Scout National Jamboree and work to earn merit badges. One member is an Eagle Scout - the highest rank in Scouting - and three are Life Scouts, the second-highest rank. "Nothing is given; they earn it, which offers them a real sense of pride," said Gene Fox, director of special needs Scouting with the Baltimore Area Council of Boy Scouts. At a recent meeting of Troop 216, Dunne stands before the uniformed Scouts, who are neatly outfitted in olive-green pants, tan shirts and blue kerchiefs knotted at the neck. While Dunne takes attendance, some of the Scouts murmur to themselves and nod to no one in particular. One rubs his eyes vigorously; another stares across the room with his fingers in his mouth. "OK, we're working on our citizenship series of badges," Dunne says. "This is an election year. Does anyone know what elections will take place in the state?" "Who is the current governor?" "Who's the county executive? Anybody remember? It's a woman." After prolonged silences to each question, the volunteers provide the answers. "What happened to President Bush over the weekend?" Dunne continues. "He got hurt," answers Sweany. "How?" Dunne asks. "Somebody shot him," Sweany says loudly. "Noooooo," Dunne and other volunteers groan. "He choked on a pretzel." "Pretzel," Sweany shouts. Dunne knows he'll be asking the same questions at future meetings until he gets some correct answers. "We go over them, we go over them, and we go over them," he says. Experience has taught Dunne that repetition is the key to getting a point across to his troop members. And he understood quickly that he had to adapt to their pace. "The way I learned I couldn't rush them was I tried to rush them," he said. "One of them got up and went home. He wasn't going to be rushed." Dunne also discovered early on that these Boy Scouts love to hug at any opportunity. "We meet here to go camping, and they all have to hug each other," he said. "Then we go to the bus, and they have to hug before they get in the bus. They're huggers." It takes a devoted cadre of volunteers who put in long hours to keep the troop going, and like the Scouts, most have been affiliated with the group for a number of years and with Scouting for decades. Assistant Scoutmaster Alice Gearhart, 73, has driven the troop members to camp and other outings for 16 years. Gearhart, a school bus driver, also prepares an annual Thanksgiving dinner for the troop at Broad Creek and gives the Scouts their medications on camping trips. Other volunteers help Dunne, a retired civil engineer, run the troop, whether organizing field trips or keeping track of badge awards. Dunne's connection to his troop members extends beyond working on merit badges. He knows when they change jobs, when they're sick, when to offer help. He didn't hesitate to get involved last February when he heard that Robert Szuba's father had died at home while the son was at his job at a woodworking program for the disabled. "I didn't want them to remove the body until Robert came home," Dunne said. "That provided excellent closure for Robert because he knew his father was gone." At the funeral, Szuba honored his father by folding an American flag and presenting it to his mother - a skill he learned in Boy Scouts. "He was quite proud, and his family was quite proud that he stepped forward and did it," Dunne said. The volunteers who work with Troop 216 say they're constantly surprised by the Scouts' accomplishments. At camp, they cook their own meals over a fire. They've mastered the two-man saw. And at a Baltimore County rifle range, they impressed the range master with their abilities to shoot safely. "When I told the parents what we did, they about died," Dunne said of the trip to the range. "Sometimes the expectations of parents may be limited," he said. "We try our best to challenge them to do things that maybe they weren't expected to do." http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/annearundel/bal-ar.scout12feb12.story?coll=bal%2Dlocal%2Dheadlines

Weyauwega Scout, 16, reaches lofty goal From the Journal Sentinel Last Updated: Feb. 10, 2002 Congratulations go out today to 16-year-old Gary Hirte of Weyauwega, who has become only the 14th Boy Scout from his hometown and the first Weyauwegan in 20 years to make Eagle Scout. A sophomore at Weyauwega-Fremont High School and a member of Troop No. 21/621, Gary is the son of proud parents Mike and Deana Hirte. In case you didn't know, reaching the rank of Eagle Scout is no small deal. Only about 4% of all Scouts ever reach scouting's highest rank. Gary's now a member of a fairly exclusive club that includes retired astronaut James A. Lovell Jr. and director/producer Steven Spielberg. He gives all the credit for his success to his parents. "Sometimes I'd feel like giving up, and they'd be there to keep me going," Gary says. "They are my biggest cheerleaders."

Newsmaker: Heroic Scout, 9, to meet president Boy helped thwart carjacking in 2000 Monday, February 11, 2002 By Johnna A. Pro, Post-Gazette Staff Writer While most third-graders will head to school this week prepared for lessons in reading, writing and mathematics, Jordon Wade has much headier matters to think about: meetings with President Bush and members of Congress. Jordon Wade, of Wilkinsburg is one of seven Scouts selected to go to Washington, D.C., to present a report on scouting to the president and Congress. (Robin Rombach/Post-Gazette) Jordon, 9, of Wilkinsburg, a member of Cub Scout Pack 379 based at St. James African Methodist Episcopal Church, is one of seven young people in Washington this week presenting the Report to the Nation on behalf of Boy Scouts of America to the president and Congress. "Jordon is our youngest delegate and he'll be representing 1.2 million other Cub Scouts," said Renee L. Fairrer, spokeswoman for the Boy Scouts of America. Jordon came to the attention of national scouting officials after local representatives nominated him for a national Medal of Merit for bravery because of his actions during an attempted carjacking in May 2000 when he was just 7 years old. On that day, Jordon and his teen-age aunt, Ashleigh, tagged along when Harold Jackson went to pick up Jordon's sister, London, at a daycare center in the Hill District. Ashleigh was in the front passenger seat. Jordon was sitting in the back seat. Harold Jackson pulled over on Roberts Street. He ran up to the daycare center, leaving the van running with the keys inside, as he typically did when he ran inside to get his daughter. As he waited for London to put on her shoes, Jackson glanced out a window and noticed a man leaning against the driver's side of the van. "I thought he might be asking for directions," Jackson said. The man, though, whom police later said was a heroin addict, was screaming at Ashleigh that he had a gun, and he jumped inside the van, intent on stealing it. As Ashleigh tried to maneuver around her seat belt and grab for the keys, Jordon sprang into action. "I took my seat belt off, I scooted over and I choked him," Jordon said, showing how he climbed over the seat and wrapped his arms around the man's neck. "He was crying and screaming and choking him all at the same time," Jackson said. Jordon hung on tight until Jackson was able to get to the van, pull the man out and subdue him until police came. Jordon, who attends Central Baptist Academy in the Hill District, left for Washington on Saturday with his parents, Monica and Harold Jackson. "I think it really means that you're the cream of the crop," said Warren Baugh, 25, president of Southern Pines Trucking Inc. in Rochester, Beaver County, and an Eagle Scout who in 1994 was one of the presenters. "You stand for and exemplify all of the ideals scouting has in place. It's a testament to his upbringing from his parents and the skills he's learned in scouting. "It's really a once in a lifetime opportunity. He'll be the only Cub Scout there out of every one in this country." Under scouting's charter, granted by Congress in 1910, the Boy Scouts must present an annual report about the state of scouting. Those selected to do so represent the values, leadership and service ideals of the organization. If all goes as planned, Jordon and the others will meet the president, along with the nation's top political leaders. "Jordon is an excellent example of scouting at its best," said Robert Mazzuca, the local Boy Scout executive. "His calm, quick actions averted a potentially dangerous situation. This young man displayed bravery in its purest form." The whole thing hasn't completely sunk in for Jordon. "He really doesn't realize the impact of what he did," Jackson said. Most impressive, said Mazzuca, was that when Jordon told his story he talked up how he felt sorry for the man and wanted him to get help. "That's a great message," Mazzuca said. http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20020211newsmaker0211p3.asp

Two teens bring best to Scouting February 11, 2002 Maurice Cooper stands 6 feet tall. Leo Trippett Jr. may notch all of 5 feet 6 inches. But Mutt and Jeff, these two certainly are not. They are the pride and joy of South San Diego's Skyline community and Boy Scout Troop 425. They were guide and beat of the troop's stylish honor guard that, for nearly a decade until it was discontinued last year, brought crowds to their feet and conversations to a halt at high-profile events around the county. CHARLIE NEUMAN / Union-Tribune Eagle Scouts Maurice Cooper (right) and Leo Trippett Jr. Trippett was the drummer; Cooper handled the guard's flag. And along with the team's two other members, they'd perform with such soulful flair and precision that, invariably, audiences would wonder: "Was that really the Boy Scouts?" Now Cooper and Trippett are at it again. They've become the first two Scouts in their troop's dozen years to earn Eagle Scout badges, the Boy Scouts' highest and most coveted award, honoring extraordinary stick-to-itiveness and sacrifice for the greater good. The two lifelong pals are jumping into the adult experience with zeal and confidence that makes some folks muse: "Are they only 18?" They credit the Scouts and spirituality. Says Cooper, recalling a day at school when he stepped up and mediated a dispute between two friends: "Scouting teaches us how to use good Christian principles to be effective leaders. And I was able to make those (two friends) see how silly it was for them to be arguing." From the pews behind the doors at 61st and Division Church of Christ to the halls of Lincoln and University City high schools, he and Trippett own reputations as stand-up leaders and role models. But they've made their shares of mistakes, such as when each, on separate occasions, hit schoolboy slumps and needed some stern and sage parental counseling to re-energize them. Even then, however, neither one would pass the buck. And Trippett will tell you that he and his buddy never really had room to walk in any other manner. Their parents, who were the catalysts behind establishment of Troop 425 a dozen years ago, remain firmly rooted in the church and in Scouting, even now that their sons have graduated from boys to men. Young Trippett notes that now he juggles family demands and a part-time job with schooling at ITT Technical Institute and long-time visions of becoming a computer engineer. And, says he: "We were always taught to take responsibility. Now as an adult, I'm starting to see how much that means." Pal Cooper is getting his first taste of the grown-up world in the Air Force. He left for basic training in San Antonio last week and harbors no doubt that he'll achieve his goal of becoming an officer, well-schooled in computer science. "I've been trained well," he assured friends and family before catching his flight out. Cooper had known for a long time during his high school senior year that he wanted a career in the military. After all, his father, Roger, the troop's spiritual adviser, is a retired Marine drill sergeant and veteran of the Gulf War. His mother, Vivienne, was also a sergeant in the Air Force. Young Maurice says he arrived at his decision after many long heart-to-hearts with his elders, who always stressed that his choice of service branches was "entirely up to him." But in the end, his mother said she was relieved by his decision. And with a smile, he re-emphasizes that his Boy Scouts experience also taught him diplomacy. He and Trippett also see themselves working in roles that help improve the lives of those around them, wherever they may choose to take up their stands as adults. It's like with the honor guard, they'll tell you: Whenever they'd wow an audience, they were reassured that all of the practice, all of the work was well invested and helped them to touch others. That's a source of great personal joy, they say, because that's what they've been trained to do. And they want to keep honoring that. http://www.newsindex.com/cgi-bin/resulttick.cgi?http://www.uniontrib.com/news/features/20020211-9999_1c11ozzie.html

Rooster, Can you tell me an example of absolute morality? The practice of incest, bestiality and perversion all are morally equivalent, care to challenge that?

Sorry for the delay, I just wanted your sophistically reasoned post to hang there a while and let the other Scouters absorb your intent and character. DD -- Your assertion that gays didnt exist and were unheard of before 1960 is naive at best. I never asserted that, come on, reread again. I said the act was considered depraved during that era not unheard of before 1960. Now stop making things up. That line of ignorance Now see what happens when you dont read with comprehension, you waist your time and mine writing all this stuff based on a wrong premise. Ignorance? Hmmm I like your pretty list though, how did you get it to format like that? And look, it has the usual confirmed reprobates and all the customary long-time dead people they try to use to justify their perversion. Too bad theyre not alive to defend against such an obvious debasing. Oops, you forgot one; they usually like to insinuate Jesus Christ practiced their filth and degradation too, you should really do a little more research. I asked you to produce a single piece of evidence that supported your claim that B-P, Boyce, West, Hillcourt or Seton would have excluded gays from Scouting, because this is now the standard bearers that you claim to defend. Nope, wrong again, I only claimed that the author (which is either B-P or West, I forget who wrote which parts) of the Morally Straight clause in the oath would have found the practice of perversion to be immoral. Youre the one who brought in the other guys, dont you even know which parts you write, and you seem to keep struggling to comprehend my statements, is it my writing? Youre making a very definitive claim and speaking for people long gone, Ring, ringHello Kettle, this is Pot, youre black! the burden of proof is upon you to provide some basis for that claim. OK-OK! How silly of me was it to assume that B-P, the author of the Morally Straight clause in the oath, would find the practice of perversion to be immoral. Im sooo stupid, what was I thinking!(Sound of hand slapping forehead) Two of the three most popular biographies of B-P even go so far as to suggest Baden-Powell himself was a closeted homosexual. No, no, noGet it right please! Both Jeal and Rosenthal said he had repressed feelings that he never acted on, and neither had any evidence to support that he did! Dont you even read the books you quote? All this is circumstantial and based on accounts of B-P letting and watching the boys skinny dip in the lake, how odd he would watch while supervising a lake-swim? How odd he got married, BTW Olave Baden-Powell started the Girl Guides; she must have been a lesbian. Woops, no, Im wrong. How odd they had there chidren, Peter, Heather and Betty, I guess he must have been bi-sexual then hmmm?Granted, I believe all of the evidence that B-P was gay is circumstantial at best, as great care was taken by him and people close to him to discard anything from his personal notes and correspondence that didnt frame him correctly for history. But it was significant enough to warrant considerable ink in multiple major biographies. Well which is it, you float illogically reasoned tripe to bolster your point and then you say its circumspect to the truth. Talk about playing both sides, you are brazen to the point of absurdity. Have you no shame, have you no decency? [it is more important to some, however, that Baden-Powell likely would not have supported the exclusion of gays and lesbians from Scouting programs. His own words at the end of his life make that clear. "[scouting's] aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self interest, personal, political sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity," Baden-Powell wrote in one of his last communications. In a final letter to the general public, he wrote a sentence that suggests the dislike he had developed for useless squabbling and exclusion that seems to exist in modern Boy Scouts. "Looking back on a life of over eighty years, I realize how short life is and how little worth while are anger and political warfare," he said] Wow, you should at least reference the web site you plagerized your quotes from. Here let me help you. http://www.gayscribe.com/readingroom/scoutingfounder.htmSo I ask again, DD, please provide a single sentence that would support your claim that B-P (or any of the founders) would exclude gays from Scouting. (without projecting your definition of moral behavior onto them). Your specious character defamations from gay agenda web-sites is matched only by your ignorance (Im calling the thought ignorant, not you) of the times in which he lived. To think that morally straight in 1910 could have considered the practice of perversion not to be moral is beyond arrogance. This is a direct quote from B-P regarding sex and scouting:this subject has led to the moral and physical wreckage of many lives. This is only too true, and I can testify from a fairly wide experience among soldiers and others. The amount of secret immorality that is now prevalent is very serious indeed. Personally, apart from explaining as a preliminary how plants, and fishes, and animals reproduce their species, I have found it appeal to boys, as it did to me when I first heard it, to tell them how in every boy is growing the germ of another child to come from him. That germ has been handed down to him from father to son from generations back. He has it in trust from God; it is his duty to keep it until he is married and passes it to his wife for reproduction. He cannot honourably forget his charge and throw it away in the meantime. Temptation will come to him in many forms to do so, but he has got to be strong and to guard it.

DD, you are the one that seems to want it both ways. I've read all of your other posts on this subject, and you are the first to link religion to the debate, Lets not confuse too many things at once. If you had truly read all my posts, you would know I never link religion to morality. Reread! now you say "religion" and "morality" aren't linked, and even suggest that the morality (set by you, set by +50% of the population, set by the national leadership of the BSA, not set by any other standard) is even MORE relevant than religious principle. Nope, the standard is right and wrong. Morality didnt originate from me, +50% of the population, national or any religion, morality is intrinsically a right or wrong. Of course morality is linked to religious principle... not any one specific religion, but a teaching that there is a higher power outside ones self, represented in many forms. No, you got it backwards, religious principle is linked to morality. Morality existed before there was religion. When man first walked upright and became endowed with reason, morality existed. Lying, stealing, murder, etc was immoral before any religion ever existed or any law ever written. If morality is only linked to religious principle, then human sacrifice was once moral. Be very careful with your boastful claims that you are just following in the tradition of Baden-Powell. I suggest you need a history lesson on old B-P and his contemporaries. Bring it on, I love history my good professor. Scouting could have been (and was) looked upon as a fairly liberal movement (you can be liberal and believe in God) in those early days... B-P's philosophies on teaching boys were definitely "outside the box". Im not sure what relevance this has to the concept of Duty to God or Morally Straight, but if your willing to expand on that premise Ill listen. I will suggest that you have absolutely NO BASIS for claiming that B-P, James West, ET Seton, William Boyce, Hillcourt and the others meant "no gays allowed" when they wrote that a Scout should be morally straight. Suggest all you want, the fact that you would think there is no basis to think BP, et al, wouldnt find the practice of perversion to be immoral is laughable. Homosexuality in that era wouldnt even have been on their radar to consider because the practice was regarded to be too repugnant to even think about much less having a position on the subject. The sexual revolution happened in the 60s not 1910 and its safe to say that post Victorian England would have found the act depraved and amoral. Who are you trying to kid?

There are so many angles from which to debate this issue. Not really, its about the morality straight clause in the oath, Davidson repeats this over and over in the trial. it's not a stealth policy, but the general principle of morally straight. I'd like to draw focus to what I think is the most important, and ask for a specific response to the issue I raise above: Of course you would because then you can work one religious philosophy against another, but its disingenuous to try and frame the debate away from the BSAs position. Duty to God is a completely different clause with a completely different intent and has NO bearing on the issue of homosexuality in the Scouts. Its all about being morally straight, read the transcripts. Major religions disagree on the morality of homosexuality. This is irrelevant, whatever major religions believe has absolutely no influence on the authors intent of the oath. DUTY to God means service to God and has everything to do with worship and nothing to do with doctrine. Youre purposely trying to confuse two completely separate and distinct clauses in the oath. How do we reconcile this? How about letting the original intentions of Baden Powell dictate the basic principles of right and wrong. I ask you again: Do you think the author of the Oath would find the practice of Homosexuality to be Morally Straight? Yes or No?

You need to determine the oval as well, round, regular or long. http://cowboyoutfitters.com/aboutfelt.html#What is my oval?

The edit function still does not work for me, can I buy a clue? ;)Theres a big difference between saying its immoral and telling the kids, in your opinion, its OK for them to do. This should say; Theres a big difference between saying its not immoral and telling the kids, in your opinion, its OK for them to do.

Morality by vote huh? Sounds like moral relativism to me. If 310 councils voted in favor of allowing those who practice incest to be members, I guess thats OK too?

At the onset, that policy should be clearly stated: the BSA excludes people who don't find homosexuality moral. Not true, the BSA excludes people who would advocate the practice to the boys. Theres a big difference between saying its immoral and telling the kids, in your opinion, its OK for them to do. The "dont ask, dont tell" policy also does not mean that gays cannot be members of the organization. Not true again. It is presumed that everyone is morally straight and therefor there is no litmus test to prove otherwise. The policy is not to inquire. Gays cannot be members period. QUESTION: Do you ask, Mr. Davidson, if Scouts or proposed Scout leaders are adulterers? Is that one of the question? MR. DAVIDSON: No, Justice Scalia. QUESTION: Do you ask if they're ax murderers? MR. DAVIDSON: No, Justice Scalia. QUESTION: There are a lot of things you don't want them to be that you don't ask about, is that it? I have noticed (and not surprisingly) that the majority of posts on this forum seem to be from dedicated extremists. I see, taking a stand on immoral choices of behavior is extreme huh? If so, Im happy to wear that label. However, its been my experience that the majority of the membership does not feel strongly one way or the other on this issue, much the same as the American public. Thats wrong too, America is divided on this issue about 50/50, kinda like the red and blue county map from the presidential election, I think it would be rather presumptuous to assume the Scout leadership would be any different. In fact, I would think the majority of Scouters find the practice immoral. Remember that this "policy" was established by a small group of professionals at the National Council (the BSA has national Nope, this policy was established by Baden Powell or was it James West, the author of that part of the oath, when he wrote the morally straight clause. Question: Do you think BP or JW would find the practice of perversion to be in violation of the oath? Scouting does not exclude gays, it just excludes people who publicly disagree with the BSAs statement that homosexuals cant be positive role models for kids (if that policy seems confusing, it should). Rediculous, specious and patently false. Those who cannot live morally straight are not eligible; a four-year-old can understand this. There are currently many gay boys and leaders in the membership, and throughout the history of the organization that has been true, and will continue to be true. There are currently members who practice incest, bestiality and necrophilia and have for the history of the organization, I guess since theyve been able to hide in the system we should accommodate them too, right? Nearly everyone who takes a strong position bases it upon their understanding of morality as defined by their religious convictions. Is this really as simple as "my religion is right and yours is wrong and that's that?" Not hardly, the BSA has never said morally straight was religiously determined, its a right and wrong issue.

OGE, you should ask each person who votes to additionally make a post on this thread, then you can tally the total number of posts against the total number of votes cast. Inspect what you expect, right?

Yeah, I'm with what ever that lls2 guy said!

The promotion of ANY sexual agenda is outside the boundaries of the scouting program. Granted, and that is the presumption of normal man/woman relationships, NOT the practice of perversion. > A persons individual sexual orientation is their own business, not that of BSA. NOT when said persons make it known it is outside of a normal man/woman relationship. And yes, DD, the quote I posted was from scoutingforall.com, as I stated. It was not my statement (although I do agree with a lot of it), maybe you should go there and direct your condescending remarks to them. Why should I go there, you agree with and posted the quote here. Either you stand behind it or not, you shouldnt be a shill for them if youre not willing to defend their rhetoric. I have no desire to argue with you the point of whether homosexuality is moral or immoral. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. Yep, morality is opinion huh? I guess if everyone had their own opinion of morality then there really isnt ANY morality, only opinion. Morally Straight means what then?

I find it very ironic to hear some speak of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when they themselves are guilty of this. Well since Im the only one who said this Ill assume you meant me Mom. Perhaps you should expand on the where the irony begins and ends here because youre kinda coming off just a smidge misanthropic. PS, nice to see you back from your self-imposed exile, I was hoping your illness wouldnt keep you away. will soon be banished to the corner with [me] and therefore be ignored no matter what you try to discuss. Not true Mom, youve never been banished nor ignored, youve endeared yourself to all of us and youd surely be missed if you werent here.

Posted on Thu, Feb. 07, 2002 DEAR SON, IT'S A BRAVE NEW WORLD By Michael Smerconish WHEN THE American Academy of Pediatrics endorsed gay adoption this week, it motivated Michael Smerconish to write a letter to his youngest son - dated 20 years in the future. June 1, 2022 Dear Lucky, Congratulations on your graduation from college. You're going out into a strange world - one your dear old dad sometimes has difficulty understanding. The changes started before you were born on Sept. 16, 2000 - almost exactly one year before the infamous events of 9/11. I figured that tragedy would reverse some things. I was wrong. If you had told me years ago that California would one day send John Walker Lindh to the U.S. Senate, I'd never have believed it. I know he had a traumatic upbringing in Marin County, but still. But what do I know? I'm the guy who told you that airport police should take a closer look at Arabs than nuns. (The profiling thing has always confused me.) By the way, do you remember that summer when we toured the monument to police and fire at the World Trade Center site? Well, what would you say if I told you that it was motivated by a real photo of a flag being raised and that the people in the picture were three white guys, not the woman, black Hispanic and Asian now caste in bronze? Things have been getting screwy for quite a while. But there has been progress. No one was happier than I when we wiped out the AIDS virus. I just never understood why we stopped spending on research to fight heart disease, cancer and stroke - still the top three killers in this country. And I know you share my tolerance. You had to be tolerant to participate in those scout sleep-overs. (Did I ever tell you that one of the Boy Scouts' core beliefs used to be a faith in God?) Oh, now we're going way back. When Congress still began each day with a prayer, kids in school started each morning with a pledge of allegiance, and some courthouses posted the Ten Commandments. (That was before the ACLU succeeded in getting eight of the commandments declared unconstitutional.) Oh, well, things change. But we're excited about your future. We can't wait for you to settle down. Maybe meet a woman who might let you work outside the home instead of just relying on her salary. You'll be a great dad, too. Your mother and I might not have the compassion and understanding of same-sex grandparents, but I think we'll do OK if you need a sitter. I just hope you will go easy with the genetic engineering. A guy I know just became a grandparent for the first time. He's so excited. Everything turned out just as they ordered. You know: the blue eyes, the full head of blond hair and the guaranteed height of 6-foot-2. I know the kid will never be bald like me, but, still, it's creepy. Beauty isn't everything. Back when you were a baby, they had something down the shore called the Miss America Pageant. Never then did I imagine that, today, we'd penalize a gal for the way she looks in a bathing suit! Sometimes I think that it all started with the Clinton administration (that's the Hillary Clinton administration). What an eight years! I knew change was coming when she first moved into the Oval Office and hung that art - Christ on the Crucifix with cattle dung all over it. Not my taste, but what do I know? Ah, well, I really just wanted to write and say I'm proud that you performed so well in college. I know, they don't give grades anymore, so we really can't say how well. It's been hard to track your academic success ever since they deep-sixed the SATs. I can still remember a day when athletes were given preference in acceptance. I wonder if you could have earned an athletic scholarship? We'll never know. How could we? You never played a game in which they kept score, lest anyone would be branded a "loser." Ah, well - at least everyone always got a trophy. Oh, it's a funny world. And still a dangerous one. Who would've believed that in the year 2022, we'd still be arguing about what to do with Mumia? Or that the stiffest criminal sentences would be reserved for smokers? Well, at least our country is safe. And maybe the credit does belong to the U.N. peacekeepers and their outposts in all 50 states. I'm not sure. And I'm still not willing to concede that Congress was right in declaring the NRA a hate group. I mean, gun control is one thing, but when the handgun ban was expanded to police, that was troubling. Well, I feel as if I have strayed from just offering my heartfelt congratulations on this rite of passage. We love you. Good luck, and, - dare I say - God bless. Love, Dad Michael Smerconish's column appears every Thursday. His e-mail address is mas@mastalk.com.

there is nothing in the Oath, Law, that outlines any guidelines for sexualityI do not for one minute believe that morally straight is a reference to sexuality Youre right, theres nothing that outlines incest, bestiality, debauchery or necrophilia either, one boys sexuality is as good as another if its not in the guidelines, right? During that thoughtful minute you took to weigh the virtues of morally straight, did you think any of these mentioned iniquities as not being referenced as morally straight either? If you have an open mindTheres having an open mind to things good, right and true and theres having an open mind to depravity, filth and degradation. Im not sure that its an open mind you want us to have. But where is this anti-gay "policy"? It is found nowhere in official BSA publications. Neither is the anti-incest policy, where is that one? Even the Supreme Court justices remarked that "It remained, in effect, a secret Boy Scout policy" Stevens, Ginsburg, and Breyer dont make up the entire SCOTUS. many other religious groups do not adhere to this belief and, in fact, believe to the contrary that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong." Its not necessarily a religious issue, its a right and wrong issue and discrimination is not always a bad thing. To discriminate means to distinguish, and here the BSA is distinguishing between right and wrong, and this is a good thing. Yet,despite the BSA's denials that it addresses sexual matters or that it espouses a articular religious doctrineWrong, wrong, wrong. Where does the BSA mention that the practice of perversion is religiously wrong? It doesnt, period! the BSA has condemned homosexual identityAgain you are wrong, you really need to research before start making things up. Here is what the BSA said only yesterday after they reaffirmed their position: 9. WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America respects the right of persons and individuals to hold values and standards different than the Boy Scouts of America, the national officers also agree that the Boy Scouts of America is entitled to expect that persons and organizations with different values and standards will nevertheless respect those of the Boy Scouts of America. Where is the condemnation? Your motives are becoming increasingly apparent. the specific moral doctrineWhat? Show me where they have written a term of art like this? Theres no doctrine, its called morality, and you dont need religion to know right from wrong. We are afraid that the Boy Scouts of America is being taken over by the relgious fundamentalists who use the Scout Law and Scout Oath as weapons of hatred, discrimination, and bigotry to hurt people who are gay in the same way they use the bible, Jesus Christ and God to hurt gay youth and adults. This little specious diatribe is probably off the scoutingforall website, isnt it? Firstly, to say that the BSA uses hatered of any kind is beyond comment, how dare you, have you no shame? And further, to use the word bigotry is intellectually meaningless, bigotry can only be against the innate conditions of race, gender, religion or political affiliation, not chosen behavior. You get an F for that little inaccuracy. A Scouts knows there is no kindness or honor in such mean-spirited behavior. Distinguishing between right and wrong is not mean-spirited, your little talking points are falling apart. Clearly, it seems to us that a gay person who is being "honest" about who he is Hehehe, wow this little talking point is right out of the pro-perversion agenda. Its NOT what they are, its what they DO, you aint born that way MOM, but youre welcome to try and prove it! "A boy's courage to do what his head and his heart tell him is right," is moral fitness. I thought you said they were born that way? but sexual orientation of leaders or girls is simply a nonissue. Yep, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.