Dedicated Dad

Not that this topic has much of ANYTHING to do with scouting issues. I think public opinion v. religion v. BSA has a connection. The ACLU is not pro Scouts either. Its close enough for government work.

Now that this thread has run its course, I think its very interesting that there is an extremely high percentage of Scouters that dont public school.

The case wasn't about a public forum where anyone could put up signs; if it was, atheists would be able to erect a sign that says "gods are myths". Theres precedent that there is, Tiernans counter-monument in Colorado. What was the result of that action? This was about the government deciding to put up a sign that starts with "thou shalt have no other gods before me". The government has no business telling its citizens which gods to believe in, if any. Given your attitude, the local government would have to power to promote whatever religions they felt like promoting, which is why ACLU lawsui

Eagle ranks awarded Erik Lindman, the son of Mr. and Mrs. Clifford Lindman, and Brian Newton, the son of Mr. and Mrs. David Newton, both of Kenmore, recently received the Boy Scouts' highest rank at an Eagle Court of Honor held at the United Methodist Church of Bothell. They advanced from Tiger Cubs on to Boy Scouts to achieve the rank of Eagle Scout. Lindman chose to construct and install bird habitats at Locust Creek Park in Brier to encourage more birds to become residents. Newton led a project for the city of Bothell at Blyth Park. He outlined the history of events that have taken pl

Hammurabi Code??? Im not familiar with this OGE, do you have a link? What is the basis for suit?

NJ gays choose to be gay, so they get no protection. From my other posts, it is obvious that I do not agree with that, but that is not the point. So you don't have to say it. We know. Just wondering what you base that on? Anything in particular? Gut feeling, anecdotal evidence, scientific evidence, what? It would appear that your position is based on consensus, if so, how did everyone else in that consensus arrive at his or her position? The trouble is that many gays admittedly agree that it is behavior and simply choose it because they want to for a variety of reasons, some too offensive to

Sorry in advance OGE and I dont mean to break protocol, but for what reason are you holding your poll?

To me, this forum is THE MOST IMPORTANT thread on the Scouter Forum site. It's these issues that are fundamental to the program. If we truly believe that BSA is more about building character than campfires, Roo, I agree with you 100%, and it would seem that we are in agreement on nearly everything else. I hope you enjoy your sabbatical and look forward to your return. Your style of debate is considered, by some, much more scoutlike than mine as some have eluded too, and Im glad youve been able to express your views with the kind of passion you feel comfortable in conveying your message. For m

It is the religions of Judaism and Christianity Thanks mom for pointing out my incomplete thought. My point was that religious ideology does not make a religion or establish such. The name of the religion is not the Ten Commandment religion and the monument is not its place of worship. Nor is In God We Trust an establishment of religion and the coin its manual. is there a religion wanting to post a similar type of important creed, that is being denied the right to put it on a monument. That is irrelevant because its up to the local legislature to make the decision of what it wants on its pub

Good question OGE, the monument was originally donated by a private organization and then removed because of vandalization in 1991. I would see replacement as maintenance to the original monument. If monuments are donated and then approved by the local legislature I would think its the states/city responsibility to maintain it. the government would still be using part of its land for this arguably religious purpose. NC, how is this an establishment, that is my question. What religion is it, the religion of the Ten Commandants? Is the monument in effect the Church? Does this monument mee

It is also against the United Nations Human Rights to descriminate on sexual orientation. What is happening here??? Ummm what are you talking about? If the U.N. subcommittee granted NGO status to the Family Research Council and not the International Gay and Lesbian Association (IGLA), how can you say the U.N. supports homosexuality? Further, can you please specifically point out where in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights exists a clause for the behavior of homosexuality? http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Your system cannot prove any behavior to be moral or immoral. Proof by congruence. Unbelievable! Just where do you think these churches stood in 1910? Do you think for one second that they would have made these proclamations back then? The answer is obvious. Just like it is obvious where the founders of BSA stood in 1910. Proof by preponderance. Bump!

Its a sad day for America, our right to freedom of speech has just been ignored by our SCOTUS. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Public property use cannot prohibit free speech, period. Signs, monuments and symbols are free speech and protected under the freedom of speech clause. Religious speech cannot be restricted from public property, as it would viol

Supreme Court won't test constitutionality of Ten Commandments monument on statehouse grounds ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer Monday, February 25, 2002 Breaking News Sections (02-25) 08:05 PST WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court refused Monday to be drawn into the explosive church-state debate over whether the Ten Commandments may be displayed on government grounds. The court did not comment in refusing to hear an appeal from Indiana Gov. Frank O'Bannon, who wanted to erect a 7-foot stone monument on the statehouse grounds in Indianapolis. O'Bannon said the

There is no burden on me to prove gays are moral. The BSA and you are making a claim, I'm simply challenging whether you can prove that claim. tj, that doesnt make any sense and youve got it backwards. The BSA has not made a claim or needs to; they have simply taken a position to which you disagree. The burden is on you to make a claim, or a declaration to challenge their position. I would think your best way to challenge is through proof of morality. No one has proven that gays are immoral. Thats not true, Ive demonstrated three ways that BSAs position is valid.By definition. By congruence.

DedDad asks: tj, are you homosexual? tjhmmer complains:I really shouldn't dignify your question with any response, but... Why do you ask? Hoping to "discredit" me by further identifying my "agenda" or attaching a stereotype? What right do you have to ask me or anyone else that question? Even the BSA does not claim that right. Do you "suspect" everyone that fails to believe gays are immoral or has gay friends are really gay themselves? Simplicity, ala McCarthy Commission. Wow, playing the McCarthyism card over a question about something you consider to be moral? That

Sorry OGE, I thought it necessary to reply. Ill take it to page 8.BTW none

when they get to the Gate of Judgment and learn to their dismay that God made 2 to 5 percent of his children gays and lesbians as a test for the rest of us, Gees, I hope Im not wrong about the 2-5% of His incestual and bestial children who test us as well. Like tjhmmmer said, theirs no proof for them either. Go figure?

never intended to give up the moral principles on which they were founded in order to accommodate Big bump to that Roo!

I quoted you fully, so that I won't be accused of taking your statement out of context, etc. Thank you so much, thats more than some have the integrity to do. leads me to conclude that the examples given by ScouterPaul do not involve "physical usually leading to by your definitive definition, must be perverse. No, I disagree. 1. Condom use does not change the act, if you think so please explain in detail. 2. Coitus Interruptus cannot occur without the coitus first, if you disagree please explain how the usually clause is not involved. Now would you answer my question? How are any of Pauls pr

I have a question for you. Don't worry, it is not about whether you know any gays or whether you had any disturbing childhood experiences. Oh, is this the question mom was worried that Id not addressed. I actually have in other posts and since tj had claimed to have read all my posts I didnt see the need. I have three family members who are practicing homosexuals, not all in the immediate family, and I love them regardless of their perversion. My uncle broke up his family with four children after 16 years of marriage, my wifes father broke up her family of two after 8 years of marriage***hes

Quickly Ive got to go, this is from the BSA v Dale transcripts, Ill comment later. Bye/ regards MR. DAVIDSON: Well, there's certainly adulterers or other people that have engaged in heterosexual behavior which Boy Scouts has not regarded as morally straight who have been excluded. QUESTION: I don't mean -- just, the incidence of living together before marriage is not so uncommon these days. I didn't refer to an adulterer. MR. DAVIDSON: Right. QUESTION: Two people who live together but they're not married. MR. DAVIDSON: I know of no particular instances of application of

No one says "morally straight means sex only within the confines of a heterosexual marriage and no tolerance for homosexuals." No one says "morally straight means sex only within the confines of a heterosexual marriage and no tolerance for incestuals." Go figure?

You would be listened to more and respected more if you would quit playing word games and quit the name calling. Please cite your points so that I may respond in particular. Others on this board who agree with the current BSA policy have stated so with confiction and stated why they feel that way without putting others down, ridiculing others, calling them liars, or playing picky word games. Calling tj a liar was wrong. But after so many of his purposeful falsehoods intended to misrepresent my position it seemed to serve me well to stop him and make him correct his untruths. Id tried several

None. But I am aware of multiple unavowed homosexuals. tj, are you homosexual?