David CO

29 minutes ago, cyphertext said:

David, your organization sounds very unique...  here, a teacher does not tell the high school football coach how to run his team.  The football coach is the AD for the campus.  His staff are all paid coaches, not volunteers.  The field supervisor controls what happens in the stands, not on the field.  They are responsible for security, monitoring weather, etc... not interacting with the on field activities. 

Not really unique. It is not at all unusual for Catholic schools to have volunteer coaches. Some even have volunteer AD's. If the AD is a volunteer, the teaching staff often outrank the AD.

As a young teacher, I once had to pull rank on a volunteer AD (on an issue of athletic eligibility). The principal backed me up.

Naturally, a teacher cannot supervise or direct a school administrator. If an administrator is on site, I would expect him/her to take charge and have the teacher assist.

I think the sports analogy works better if the football coach is a volunteer. It makes the comparison to a volunteer scout leader seem more applicable.

35 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm not following your thinking.

A good analogy is a sports team.  If this were a high school, a teacher would not be allowed to go to the football team and start telling the coach how to run the team.

You certainly are not.

I love sports analogies. I was an Athletic Director. All of our teachers do gym/field supervision at sports events. Not all at the same time, of course. They take turns doing supervision duties. 

As a member of the teaching staff, the gym/field supervisor has the authority to supervise and direct all of the students and volunteer coaches. In the absence of an administrator, the teacher is in charge. If the football coach is a volunteer, he/she must obey the teacher.

I would add that the teacher's size, gender, and teaching subject don't matter. I would expect a volunteer football coach to obey a 100 lb. female Art teacher no less than he/she would a 220 lb. male Gym teacher. This is clearly explained during volunteer orientation.

10 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If it seems that way - I'm sorry, but that's not my intent.

The principal (as the IH) and COR asked us to run a scouting program at their facility.  The 3rd grade teacher did not.  Why would the principal and COR want me to start changing around the program because the 3rd grade teacher showed up at the scout meeting and started telling me how to run a scout troop?

 

BTW - I'm not picking on 3rd grade teacher.  My wife and mother are teachers.

 

I am sure that your wife and mother would tell you that a 3rd grade teacher is perfectly capable of supervising older students. All of our teachers have supervision duties, aside from their regular classroom duties, that requires them to interact with students of all ages. 

The principal would expect you (and your scouts) to obey a 3rd grade teacher no less than any other teacher.

12 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

 

The troop adults - (and again particularly the SM and CC) - should be able to navigate the politics of outside adults.  Again, I'd expect them to be respectful - treat them like a distinguished guest.

 

Once again, you are treating the Chartered Organization (and its staff) like it is merely a sponsor. The CO is not some outside adult or distinguished guest. The CO is the owner of the unit.

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:12 PM, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

Our boy has been a cub scout for 2 years now. He loves scouting. He is interested in nothing else, no sports or karate, just scouts.

 

Don't sign your son up for sports. 

19 hours ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

If a pack chooses to not allow a dual registered scout, they should say so straightforwardly. Allowing/making excuses for an adult leader treating a child in such a manner that the child is cowering under a table to hide from said leader is unacceptable in any circumstance. If my child was being targeted because of the dual registration, there were a lot of much more adult and respectable ways to handle it.

I have intentional avoided discussing the behavior of the scout leader because, unless I have missed something somewhere, you haven't actually told us what he did. You have labeled it as harassment and bullying. You have described your son's reaction to it. But you haven't told us what he did.

I'm fine with that. I don't want to pry. I just don't want to jump to a conclusion about a scout leader, especially if I don't actually know what he did.

I agree that a scout unit should be very straightforward with its policies.  It won't end all disagreements, but it will resolve them more quickly and with less confrontation. That is one of the reasons why I prefer to discuss policy rather than talk about people and their personalities. 

My last post wasn't a frivolous comment. I actually saw something like this happen at the high school.

It was a Band student, not a scout. The VP of the Band Club told a boy to disobey a teacher, in a situation very much like the one ParkMan described. The boy was given a 3 day suspension and made ineligible from all extracurricular activities for a month. The VP resigned.

3 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

- Say that another teacher at the school comes to the troop meeting and starts telling the scouts how to do dishes or run the troop meeting.  As CC, I would be right to speak with the teacher and say "thanks for the input, we have a different approach."  I would be polite and courteous, but we do not need to simply obey.  If the teacher persisted, I would simply say - let's setup a meeting next week with the COR, you, and I to work through this.

 

Would you really want to put a student/scout in that situation? You would be telling him to openly defy a teacher. There could be consequences for something like that.

I wonder how would you explain it to the parent of a boy if he got suspended from school (or just scouting) for disobeying and defying a teacher.

13 minutes ago, qwazse said:

 

This is where many of us take for granted that we've each gravitated toward the CO's who give us the latitude we feel we need to deliver the program we think we must.

 

...or gives us the structure and support we feel we need.

Yep. Some of us want latitude and independence from the CO, others want structure and financial support.

How much are your dues and camping fees? We don't have any. 

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

I think this is the point where we differ.   As a scouter hold that I am charged to deliver, to the best of my poor ability, the scouting program to the scouts.   Not the schools program, or the churches program, if the boys want that then they can go there and I will ( and have )  happily teach them in that venue.  

Why should I give in when I know I am right?   "higher authority" or not?  How is that serving the scouts?  What in the end would I be teaching them by my example? That you should just meekly submit to every rule by some person in " authority" no matter how arbitrary or capricious?  Then hope that the very  organization that employs said person will somehow reverse this rule?    In my limited experience this happens only rarely. 

No, it is the Chartered Organization that has the authority and responsibility to deliver the scouting program to the scouts. The CO then selects the unit leaders and charges them with making it happen.

By accepting and acknowledging the ownership and authority of the Chartered Organization, I think I have taught and demonstrated a certain amount of humility to the scouts. I think humility is one thing that is sorely lacking in many of our scouts. They benefit from acquiring a little more of it.

I don't know how a scout leader can expect the scouts to respect and obey him if he is unwilling to "meekly submit" to the leaders and officials who supervise him.

The scouts and scout leaders always have a recourse if they feel that the Chartered Organization and/or its leaders act in an arbitrary or capricious manner. They can join a different unit.

48 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

I have read this thrice,  but I am still not sure I understand what exactly you are saying.     

Are we talking about a teacher/parent in a classroom setting?   Or in the school  gym where the scouts meet?   Or camping  on land owned by the Scouter?  In the first two it is a given that the teacher should and does have authority. Although they should interact with the SM. rather than directly with the scouts if possible.   In the latter I do not perceive how a teacher would have any more authority than any other parent.

 

When a scout unit is owned by a school, the scout program is a part of the ministry/program of the school. The scout activities are school activities. A teacher's authority exists at all school activities, not just the ones that take place on school grounds.

This is where my opinions differ from many of the scouters on this forum. I believe the CO owns the unit. Others act as though the CO merely sponsors the unit.

A teacher should always exercise good sense and judgement, recognizing the differences in time, place, and circumstance, before asserting his/her authority as a teacher.

We have had school sponsored parties (8th grade graduation parties, end-of-year sports parties, etc.) at parents' homes. It is an interesting situation. We make sure that the parents understand that, even though the party is at their home, it is still a school activity. School rules and policies still apply. 

Even so, I would feel uncomfortable asserting my authority while I am a guest in someone else's home, or camping on their property, regardless of whether or not it is a school sponsored activity. 

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

It's a matter of the position the person holds and the corresponding location.  Outside of their specific area they are just another citizen. 

 

This is the biggest problem I have with the scout execs. They don't get it.

BSA would like to treat scout leaders like they are subject to BSA rules and authority, 24 hours a day, in every location and circumstance. This doesn't work. A scout leaders kids should not be forbidden from having friends over for a sleepover because of their dad being a scout leader.

I am a teacher. BSA cannot insist that I have two-deep leadership in my classroom because some of my students might also be scouts. Time, place, and circumstance do matter.

44 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

It's an old saying, I think you will find it in Machiavelli, that you never publicly undercut a subordinate's authority unless you are attempting to discredit him and replace him, or render him inept in the eyes of his subjects and thus unable to lead them.

 

Sometime it is necessary. I'm sure that you wouldn't want me to let a teacher, who is also the parent of a scout, walk all over a scout leader because I am too concerned about undercutting a teacher's authority, would you?

You have put you finger on the difficulty of being an administrator. You need to direct and supervise your staff without diminishing them in the eyes of the students and parents. They need that respect in order to do their jobs.

I do this by focusing on the policy rather than the person. My staff is usually pretty good about understanding the distinction.

21 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

As a scouter it seems my main function while camping with the troop is preventing helicopter parents from interfering with the patrol leaders who are trying to lead.  That is after all one of the main things they are supposed to learn in scouting, right?

 

Right. 

It gets tricky when the parent is also someone who can supersede your authority, like a teacher. It puts the scout leader in a tough spot. You want to do things the right way, but you must still give in to a higher authority. It's not easy to give in when you know that you are right.

When this happens, it is up to the CO to set it right.

It is important to remember that a unit doesn't have to do everything that BSA allows. BSA allows dual registrations. It does not require either one of the units to accept a dually registered scout. 

9 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

In another thread there was a question of adult authority from one unit, a cub pack, spilling over into a scout troop if both had the same C.O.   One of our posters when asked to show where this was written B.S.A. policy, replied that if it was the C.O.s policy then the official B.S.A. rules and regs. were superseded.       I did not know that was possible.   If it is then it begs the question, how far can the C.O. rules differ from scoutings before you can no longer in truth call their youth group a scout troop?

Of course it is possible for BSA to be superseded. BSA is not the ultimate authority in the world.

If a park ranger tells you to pack up and move to another camp site, you do it. His authority supersedes that of anyone in your unit. If a police officer tells you to stop doing something. You stop. No argument. It doesn't matter who told you to do it.

I agree with Eagle94. A scout should not take his orders from just any Tom, Dick, or Harry who happens to wander by and wants to butt in. The scout should know the person, or at least know what sort of authority the person has. There is a big difference between obeying a police officer (or a fireman, paramedic, etc.) and obeying some random passerby.

At my CO, a staff member can over-rule any volunteer. A teacher can over-rule a scoutmaster.

The scouts know all the teachers. If a teacher tells a scout to move a display out of the lobby, the scout must do it, even if a SPL or scout leader told him to put it there. The scout must obey the teacher. It doesn't matter if the teacher is registered with (or has any position or standing) with BSA. The teacher's authority comes from the CO, not from BSA.

From the very beginning, BSA understood that having the Chartered Organizations own the units would create some interesting challenges. It had always felt that the benefits of such an arrangement outweighed the difficulties. This has been true for a very long time. 

I sense that there are a lot of execs and council/district scouters who would like BSA to be more like girl scouts, with the councils owning the units, but for now, that is not how it works. The CO's own the units.

1 hour ago, ItsBrian said:

 

Im so lost on what I should do, and if it is worth it working at the day camp. My parents say don’t, and I’ve had teachers say don’t, but need more opinions.

 

Listen to your parents.

It's fine for those of us who have decent paying day jobs to volunteer some of our free time for smiles. It is an entirely different thing for a young person to forgo good employment opportunities or neglect his education. If I remember correctly, you need that money for college.

1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

When you say "committee meeting" do you mean "district committee meeting", "council committee meeting", or "pack committee meeting"?  There are different levels.

Good point. I was assuming that Bobbys_mommy was talking about a unit committee meeting. If it is some other kind of meeting, the unit leaders could simply choose to not attend,  like President Trump and the White House Correspondents Dinner. 

That actually makes more sense. I don't know how a district could call for a meeting on the Chartered Organization's property. Let them hold their gripe session at the council office.

45 minutes ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

But bottom line, district is insisting on all parents being invited to a committee meeting this coming week to share their comments, complaints on how the pack is being run, etc. District will be there running that meeting to make sure everyone's voices are heard. This all came about today, after my original post.

 

I was an IH who was very protective of the rights of the Chartered Organization. The district has no right to take over a unit committee meeting. I would disband the unit before I would let the district take it over.

I sympathize with the ends that you wish to achieve, but I strongly disagree with the means.

Unfortunately, some people will confuse unit committee meetings with the White House Correspondents Dinner. ☹️

A unit committee meeting exists for the purpose of conducting the business of the unit. It is not there to give individuals an opportunity to spout off at the unit leaders with insults, accusations, or defamatory comments.

1 hour ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

I'm finding out now that no one can tell us whether we can or should attend meetings. They are supposed to be open to everyone, every parent. 

 

That is not entirely true. The COR can ban individuals from unit meetings and/or activities if they are deemed to be dangerous or disruptive.

Also, a scout unit is supposed to have open meetings, but the unit is not required to allow attendees to speak or actively participate in the meetings. A unit can have an "observe only" policy for attendees. If the unit does allow attendees to address the committee and/or participate in discussions, it can have rules to limit or regulate the way this is done.

Attendees at committee meetings are obliged to follow the rules, speak only if and when they have the floor, and obey the instructions of the committee chairman. A committee meeting is just that... a meeting. It is not a free-for-all.

3 hours ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

I've recently found out all sorts of things by attending classes at University of Scouting that I never knew before. It's an old boys system down there and I've ruined it for them. Nothing was being run the way that it should and now with districts' eyes close on them they have to make all the changes they never wanted to. So again, I'm happy to be hated if it brings about a positive result.

 

I think it is great that you are trying to learn more about your son's favorite activity.

As you learn more about the nuts and bolts of scouting, you will understand that the district does not normally try to force changes on the unit. The district is supposed to be a recourse for the unit.

What the district can do is bring concerns to the attention of the Chartered Organization. The CO owns the unit. The CO can make changes.

My guess is that this is what the district was trying to do at your meeting. It was trying to bring your concerns to the attention of the Chartered Organization. The Chartered Organization Representative might have been one of the people at the meeting.

3 hours ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

I don't know that there is a "Pack committee" The cubmaster sits on the committee, but it is not separate from the boy scout committee. Money is not kept separate either, and recently we were all informed that we are $600 in the negative and need to kick butt fundraising. I asked where the $600 went, given that we don't do any activities or go anywhere that costs money... Our questions were ignored. They just pushed the fundraising issue. My concern was that if someone has their hand in the kitty whom shouldn't, and if that situation was not explored & rectified first, we could fundraise all we want, but we'd just be putting more money in that person's pocket. 

Every scout unit has a committee. The pack committee is separate from the troop committee, on paper, but it possible that their members are dual registered, in both units, making it appear as if there is only one committee.

Every unit has a Chartered Organization Representative. If the Chartered Organization has more than one unit, such as a pack and a troop, the same person will be the COR for both units, since a Chartered Organization can only have one COR.

The COR may or may not be a member of the committee, as the COR may dual register in one other position in the unit, such as committee chairman or committee member.

All of the pack funds are the property of the Chartered Organization. The CO can let each unit keep their funds in separate accounts, it can hold both of its units' funds together in one account, or it can deposit the funds directly into the CO's accounts. The decision is up to the CO.

4 hours ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

District set up a meeting, but long story short the entire committee (which included no parents, mostly boy scout leaders who had nothing to do with the situation)

 

It is very unusual for a unit committee to have no parents. 

Other than setting up a meeting for you with the unit committee, I don't see what else the district could do. What were you expecting them to do?

4 hours ago, Bobbys_mommy said:

 

Things finally came to blows a couple weeks ago & he intimidated our son to the point that he was hiding under a table. I tried to discuss this with the cubmaster after a meeting but he hung up on me. So I contacted District.

 

I assume you do not mean to say that things actually came to blows.