dan

Has there been a turnover in adult leaders at this troop? You said that you have gone on trips with this troop for years and have never seen drinking or gambling before, which is why I asked about a change in adult leadership.

Now for the gambling part, you need to ask the Scoutmaster if they where playing cards, if they where, ask them if they using chips or money. Whatever they say you only have 2 options either pull your son out of the troop or do not. There is no law that says people cannot have a friendly game of poker. There is no rules that I am aware of that states no gambling allowed in the BSA. No one is going to back you if you raise a stink about gambling, some people think nothing is wrong with gambling during a scout outing.

You are trying to push your values to them, if the troops leaders values say that there is nothing wrong with gambling, that is the values of that troop. And it would be a very bad thing for you to tell the parents in your pack not to visit this troop, you should only inform them of the facts, If you ask the troop if they play cards and or gamble on outings, and they say yes, you should than tell your parents that in a matter of fact way.

As Sargent Friday "said just the facts ma'am".

John-in-KC

I think you have made your point and I agree with you, BUT no one saw anyone drinking or even saw a bottle or anything. The original posters made it sound like she did not think they where drinking either. It was only a bag, bags do not hold liquor.

I took a 23 degree bag last year, we where there the last 2 weeks in July, right before the rainy season, hint hint.

We where at highest elevation at philmont, I think it got down to 20 degrees some nights. the bag I took I used once camping in Illinois in 40 degree weather, I froze in it in the Midwest at 40 degrees, but it keep me plenty warm at Philmont. A good 30 degree bag should be fine, you will have thermal underwear with you, which you can put on if it get really cold at night. Not sure if this helps you or not, but just my 2 cents worth.

FScouter

I respectfully disagree with you on how these myths get started.

I believe that they get started by units who have these rules ie no soda, insurance will not cover you when traveling unless you are in uniform, etc. The units find it easier to say that it a BSA rule instead of guiding the scouts to do the correct thing for the correct reason.

Soda on campouts:

Leader

How does this fit into the food pyramid?

Scout

It says sweets are ok.

Leader

Yes, but how much?

Scout

One serving per day?

Leader

Correct! So you can either have a can of soda or the cobbler you where planning on making.

This was all that I could find.

http://quartermasterstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=QMS&Category_Code=NT-YLT

There is not much there.

We just had this discussion about 60 days ago, on this forum.

It went just like this thread is going.

Some poster wrote that Agnostic can be a member, because they are just confused.

Some said they would ignore policy and allow an Agnostic to be a member.

Some posters said that a Agnostic could not be a member.

Many posters told the posters that said that a Agnostic could not be a member are confused and needed to read up what a Agnostic is.

Merlyn posted what the BSA says about a Agnostic being a member, seems pretty cut and dried to me, but if yous want keep looking for those loop holes if you wish.

I think I am going to take the troop sod surfing this weekend after all it is not disallowed in the GTSS.

IMO Hiking boots are not necessary, BUT,

At Philmont last year, I was glad I had boots on because of the streams we crossed and some of the trails with large rocks, I do not think my ankles would have make it without a the ankle support, my ankles hurt after walking on 6 to 12 inch rocks, I called them boulders at the time! We crossed 4 streams my feet stayed dry, they would not have without boots.

I do not believe that there are very many boots make with steel shanks, unless you are over the 150 dollar price and many over that price do not have the steel shank. The steel is suppose to hold up and not bend providing you your arch support, the theory is with your weight and your packs weight the plastic shanks will not hold up. BUT today's plastic probably holds up just as well as the steel, especially for scouts weights.

In 2004 at Double H our guide wore a pair of low top columbia shoes, this terrain was a lot rougher than philmonts, he had no problems, BUT he knew his body and had his ankles in really good shape.

Just like everyone else has says, knew your body, break in whatever footwear you are going to hike in. Like Eagle74 wearing cotton socks, he knows what works for him, my feet sweat a lot, cotton socks would tear my feet up.

Backpacker

Are you saying that 70% of the farmland that has been sold has been sold to Arab and Japanese corporations or are you saying that only 30% of farmland left is owned by american farmers?

And please tell me where I can verfiy these numbers.

What is a Life Statement?

If the committee has seen the light. Does the troop have a feeder pack?

Will the committee suggest to the cubs to make sure and visit other troops?

I still say if the other troop starts recruiting, this one will fold.

If a committee is using the term feeder pack, they do not have a clue.

sorry, but when you turned the problem around to a cub scout mom, you sound no better than the committe.

Semper

I think you meant

G_d Bless You!

didn't you?

WOW

This is and older post. But while reading the first page of this thread, when it was still discussing flag burning and relating it to other recent post I am amazed that some posters would think about removing a scout from the unit they are in if they burned the flag in protest, yet in another post when a scout was being a bully, swearing, threatening another scout some posters said that he should not be removed, this just amazes me! Justice for who the bully or the victim! I sometimes think that the Boy Scout stuff will never work! But than I go watch a group of scouts and the world seems a better place.

Do not go up to the Scoutmaster and tell him you are going to be the ASM for the NSP. Ask him if that is what you want to do.

If you stay in this troop your son will never know what boy lead or patrol method is. And when he grows up to be a leader he can run the troop just like his old troop did it!

There have been many discussion on how long it would take to turn around a troop that is not boy lead or using the patrol method, the magic number is 5 to 6 years.

Gwd Scouter is sounds like you have been able to do it a bit faster, I am assuming that is because all of the leader have left and you did not have to try and change them only the scouts?

I think training will only help you a little bit it sounds like you already have a good grasp of Boy Scouts.

First you should tell the pack that they are not your feeder pack, unless you have the same CO. Your committee should encourage the cubs and parents to visit other troops to pick the one that best fits their needs. The troop committee sure sounds like they are afraid of a little competition, which would make me look at other troops real quick. If the other troops in the area start recruiting this troop may be shrinking fast. If scout are going to a different town to join a troop the committee better understand real quick that they are no longer the only game in town.

Sounds like you are doing a great job of recruiting I am not sure if you will be able to continue this with this committee. Good Luck.

If the Patrol Leader is not taking a attendance and following up why a patrol member is not there and why he did not inform the Patrol Leader that he was not going to be there, You might be using the Troop Method.

If the Patrol Leader is not at all PLC pushing for advancements to be taught at the troop meetings for his patrol members to advance, You might be using the Troop Method.

If you do not have patrol completions, You might be using the Troop Method.

If all patrols do not sing a patrol song, have a flag and a patrol yell, You might be using the Troop Method.

If the Senior Patrol Leader spends more time talking to patrol members than the Patrol Leaders, You might be using the Troop Method.

If the adult and scout Leadership do not eat with patrols, You might be using the Troop Method.

If Patrols do not have patrol outings, You might be using the Troop Method.

If every patrol does not have its own, cooking gear, rain fly, You might be using the Troop Method.

KUDU where are you? I think you could add some good insight into this thread.

I thought that a scout had to be First Class?

In this whole thread I only saw a few changes that I thought where really changes to the program. They where:

Retesting (I assume that they was at a BOR)

Troops not using the patrol method

The next 3 examples, posters said that they where changes to the program I do not think they are.

Mandating that a Eagle project takes at least x amount of hours (I think that is what 3 times the normal hours mean, since there is no standard I do not know how this could be measured, most councils control the eagle project, not the troop, note I said MOST)

LDS troops adding requirements for camping (I think this maybe a myth, how are they changing it? Camping one night a month instead of two? Just becuase one or a few LDS troop does it does not mean they all do)

A poster said that the troop does not have a First Class in a Year program, but also said scouts make about a rank per year, sounds like they have the program but do not understand it or do not like the term FCFY or think the olds ways are better, even though they are the same.

Most of these sounds like leaders not understanding the program more than changing it.

When I think of difference standards. I think of 2 scouts that attend maybe 1 or 2 campouts a year and less than 50 percent of the meetings, when asked one scout says he has CCD classes every weekend and sports practice on the night of the troop meetings. The other scouts which has attended the same amount or maybe a few more says he did not feel like attending, the first scout I would say that he has been active in the troop the 2nd scout I would not, I would not allow the 2nd scout to advance to the next rank, some will say I am incorrect on this, but this is the standard I use.

If you run a troop that adds requirements at least be mature enough to tell the scouts that the troop does this and tell them how they could contest the added requirements.

note to self press the submit button once!(This message has been edited by dan)

JLT is Junior Leader Training is a course run by troops usually done over a weekend or day.

JLTC was Junior Leadership Training Conference it was a weeklong or a 2 3 day weekend course ran by a council it has been replaced with

NYLT National Youth Leadership Training.

Who should go to NYLT the future leaders of the troop, I guess that is just about every scout! The Scoutmaster should choice the scouts he thinks are ready for the next level of training. Yes you are taking a chance on any scout leaving the troop after the training that should not be a reason to not send a scout to NYLT, unless there is some reason the SM thinks he may be leaving the troop.

One scout from a troop can attend NYLT, he will have many other scouts around him, he does not need to attend with a buddy from his troop. Even it you send 2 scouts most likely they will not be in the same patrol, Maybe not even the same troop, depending on how many troops your councils runs for NYLT.

LyndaJ was the requirements signed off, if so why did you have the scout go over the requirements again?

IMHO very few if any counselor will accept another counselor sign off without having the scout go over it the requirements again.

IMO finding another counselor would be the same as using this one, a redo.

Have the policeman or fireman come in and give their presentation. After the presentation tell the troop what they just leaned is a requirement(s) for the Safety/whatever merit badge. If they want to run with it great, if not they still learned something. Instead of using merit badge to fill up a meeting, use the time to teach skills, some will be able to be used for merit badges if the scout wants.

AND

Do not forget to have games at the meetings, Keep it Fun.

Eagledad

During the Course Director Conference in 2004, it was suggested that during the feast that all Scoutmasters be invited out and after the feast the scouts would share their vision of their troop with their Scoutmasters. To help with the issue that you brought up.

I really do not believe that the course is just for SPLs or possible SPLs. This is a leadership course, that all leaders in the troop can learn from, Guides, Instructors, ASPLs,PLs

When camping for a week, scout skills well be learned, after saying that, NYLT does not utilize as many scout skill as JLTC. This is not a course which to teach scout skills like fire building, cooking, but as I said before if you are camping for a week in a tent, cooking over wood fires. Scout skills are honed over the week, some of the Scout Skills are part of the course, and some are there because it is a week long camp. There are presentations such as, Preparing your plans, Resolving Conflict, Leading yourself and so on, but do you not think these are good tools for a leader?

If you want to staff this summer, you had better call now! We have already had 2 meetings, for the course in June.

You wrote

You indicate that NYLT includes a campout, is it planned by the PLC or by the Patrol?

Planned by the youth staff with help from the syllabus.

You wrote

There are plenty of theories about why Scouts do not usually hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. I would submit that it is because we do not train Patrol Leaders how to do that. You get what you train for.

I could not agree with you more! All you hear is excuses why they scouts cannot go on a patrol activity, to busy, not ready and so on.

I would like to see Patrol leaders be responsible for the patrols advancement, as you have said before. I see this as the Patrol Leader monitors what the other members of the patrol needs, and take this to the PLC, so that the PLC can include the teaching of the skills at a meeting or a campout by a troop instructor. Are we thinking along the same lines here?

You have wrote about the Patrol Leader signing off of advancements, What does this leave the Troop Instructor to do?

bizzybb

My first campout with the troop a few years ago I only had a 30 degree bad and a really cheap 50 degree bag, I but them together and had a very warm night. It got down to 15 degree that night, so I say go head and use both bags.

I thought I heard everything on how to stay warm at night, I learned a few thing from this thread.

I do have question though, it was stated to keep the sleeping bag stored until ready to use because of moisture. What if you have a 2 night campout, like we have this weekend, what do you do with your bag during the day after sleeping in it all night? I take mine out for a while and open it up and let it air out, this sounds like it goes against what is being said here, keep it stored until use because of moisture.

National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) is a training course, it is a weeklong course it is setup to represent a month in the life of a troop.

Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting?

Yes, but I am not sure if your ideas what a patrol meeting is the same as mine.

Do they use these Training Patrol Meetings to actually do things like make their Patrol Flag?

Yes each patrol is encouraged to make a patrol flag and some embellishments on some camp equipment.

A Patrol Yell and Patrol Call contest?

Yes each patrol is encouraged to have a patrol yell. In 3 years I have not seen a patrol not have one. They showcase there Patrol Yell during the daily flag ceremony.

How about Instructional Games?

The whole course is a game! The whole course is Instructional.

I'm sure NYLT must teach Patrol Leaders how to use games to teach Scouting skills!

How many alternatives to basketball or dodge ball do they learn?

The participants are showed how to do many games and are given handouts of many more.

The whole course is setup to teach and watch Scouting Skills

Does each participant get a turn at actually performing as Patrol Treasurer, Scribe, Quartermaster, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, Cheermaster?

No, this course is more for SPL, ASPL, Troop Guide, Troop Instructors and PL. Each participant is a PL or Scribe for a day; they will attend a PLC and report with any issues with the patrol and take the days schedule back to the patrol. The Scribe is asked to provide a write up about the patrol for the newspaper.

Do they make a knot board?

Not within this district, but I do know of other districts they do use a knot board, this district does tabletop pioneering and pioneering projects.

Opening ceremonies?

Closing ceremonies?

They are taught and run a campfire program. Taught and run Opening and closing flag ceremonies.

Making camp equipment, even repairing toys as a Good Turn?

No, but they do build a few camp gadgets when doing pioneering.

How about planning? Do they learn how to actually plan a Patrol Meeting, point by point?

No, but do learn how to plan and run troop meetings.

Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Hike?

The route, the equipment, the food?

There is a day where the patrols go on a hike, to their campsite, with all of there gear, a map is given to them they either use a GPS and compass or just a compass. There is one training course where they have to plan the meal and every item they will need to make the meal, this one is quite a learning experience for them.

The activities that make for a fun and purposeful hike?

No

How about Scoutcraft instruction?

Each participant does a presentation on anything they want about Scouting. Most do Scoutcraft skills.

Does NYLT teach Patrol leaders how to teach specific advancement skills?

No, it is more the skills on how to relate to people how to understand other people and yourself. And how to utilize other people. But wouldn't this be the job of the Troop Guide or Instructor?

I'm sure that it must cover the theory of Scoutcraft Advancement within the Patrol!

You know, topics like: "Why advancement? What constitutes normal advancement?

No

Why is it important that the Patrol Leader is ahead of the Scouts in his Patrol?

If you mean the Leader of the Patrol Yes.

How does hiking and camping make advancement possible?" I'm sure that NYLT covers how to teach most of the Scoutcraft advancement requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class.

No

Singing?

Yes, I watched a patrol sing stand be me, you should have heard it!

Story telling?

They hear stories from the staff, it really depends on the participants, I have heard some great stories from them and some will not tell stories.

How about dramatics rather than pun & put-down skits?

Yes, this is a whole chapter about what makes good skits.

Do they then go on a Patrol Hike to see what a good Patrol Hike is like ("A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose")? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Campout?

All the details such as permission forms, equipment, campground selection, food, games to play.

No

I'm sure that NYLT teaches Patrol Leaders how to prepare campout games ahead of time.

No

And do they actually camp as a Patrol rather than just talking about it?

Yes each patrol is separate by as much room as it allows. Patrols are grouped by abilities and age, using a talent sheet the scout fill out ahead of time, trying to get the patrol strong enough to have a strong patrol. Scouts from the same troop are not placed in the same patrol. It is a group of scouts coming together; most of the patrols are very strong by the end of the week. Utilizing the strength of each scout.

Gee and I thought you where using your blunt instrument on me.

And all this time I thought the issue was is it a BSA program or not. Silly me.

Glad you are not feeling snarky.

edit

What we have here is failure to communicate.(This message has been edited by dan)