Crossramwedge

Here is an article about the BSA being pressured to cave in on its Gay policy.. Big name CEO's of large corporations are pushing it . BSA National is going to cave if we do not do anything about it. Here is the article. Go to it and read it yourself. Seems like we ought to do a little boycotting ourselves. According to this article ATT's CEO Randall Stephenson is pegged to be the new BSA Board President and is pushing it big time. Stinks to high heaven.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/boy-scouts-were-pressured-by-corporate-sponsors-to-change-policy-on-gays-89156/

Well I hear the death bell of Scouting as we know it coming to an end if National rules to let homosexuals join the BSA. To many Religious organizations will probably back out of being CO's. Many will not bend their beliefs and will not like having the possibility of being sued for sexual discrimination hanging over their necks. I am CO of our troop and am not sure what would happen to our troop if this ruling goes toward allowing gays join the BSA. I guess if it happens I will find out.

Just heard our DE is resigning his position. Nice guy. Not a Scouter, but did the best job he could. Our last 2 DE's had not been involved in scouting before they took the position. Both where college graduates in their mid 30's. They tried and to be honest with you there is no way I would become a DE. Not enough pay for the position to warrant the pressure put upon you. If you have a District committee that does not do its job, then I believe the DE can not do their jobs. How about it former DE's ?

Sorry guys, I thought that the post had been deleted. I did not realize it had gotten put on to the patrol method sight. I just ran across it earlier this evening.

The family involved after some discussion has decided to move on. They and five other families are leaving. We wish them well. They have a different ideas of scouting than the rest of the troop adults. (Webelos III) ring a bell. Not a bad thing, just not for our troop. When they realized that the SM was not going anywhere and that they where not going to get their way they decided to move on. We have offered to help them in every way we could.

The BOR not taking place was a mistake, but that was just one of several issues that we had with these families. They are very, very protective of their boys. Over protective if you ask me. One of the problems we had occurred when we had "Troublesome" boys join the troop. These families would get up their ire and demand ultimatums be given to these boys to immediately straighten up or get out. They do not want their boys associating with "kids like that". The other adults in the troop feel like we need to reach out to these boys and mentor and guide them because that is what we as scouts need to do. To us that is what scouting is all about. Its not about building a wall and excluding these troubled boys.

SM does not recommend boy for board of review for advancement to Life scout. Parents are livid. The story as I understand it is that as in the past the SM had asked the boy to show leadership on his own and stop relying on his Dad so much. His Dad is a helicopter parent who is stuck in Cub Scout mode. Needless to say the Dad and the SM do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. On 3 different occasions the Scout was asked to help clean up after camp outs. He was defiant and on one occasion told the SM he needed to help his Dad load up then ran over to him and stood beside him and supposedly "glared" back towards the SM kind of daring him to do something. If you read my former post about "SPL in HOT Water" in a past post this Dad is the man who got that rukus started. The SM said the boy stormed out before he had time to delve further in to the alleged problems and the solution he had in mind so the boy could have his board of review.

The parents are appealing the decision of the SM. That is their right. I am at a quandry as to who they appeal to . The Unit committee or the District committee . According to this:

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Appealing_a_Decision

This reads to me that the appeal needs to be filed with next level up from the entity that turned down the scout for a Life Board of review. In other words from Unit level to District level. How does this work? As Committee Chair/CO what say do I have in this matter?

This man has caused more trouble in the past year than we have had in the past 10 years totaled. If I had my way I would tell him to find another troop. But that is the easy way out. Any way the SM has had it and is ready to throw it all in. If we give the boy a board of review over his wishes before he holds another SM conference then thats it. He is gone. I do not want to see this. He just got word that he is the Silver Beaver award recipiant for our District this year. He does A LOT for scouting as a whole. Been in it 25 years. He just wants people to respect his decision. Oh by the way this exact same thing happened to his son 20 years ago. He did not like it and raised a little cain about it but his son recovered and made Eagle scout. The SM says scouting helped saved his son and helped turn his sons life around.

A lot OA dancers spend a lot of time and personal money to make these costumes. I know of a young man that has spent what I consider a substantial sum on his costume as well as countless hours designing and making it. He considers it his personal property and loans it to the Lodge for Ceremonial purposes. In my opinion he owns the costume and may do with it whatever he wants to. He may not be able to personally attend the Crossover himself and does not trust the other young men (perhaps from past experiences) to take care of it.

Should the Lodge own their own equipment? Yes.

If the Lodge provides money and supplies to design and make a costume for the Lodge then the costume would belong to the Lodge and should be stored in a place that is agreeable to all concerned. Our Lodge on occasion gathers together and has a Camp out that is specifically geared to costume design and making. We provide the supplies and the boy's supply the design and labor. During the day we do a short service project also. After all the OA is all about service.

Do you think the BSA Media Guidelines should control the content of your personal non scout web page? I personally do not think that it should. But if you read the guidelines it heavily leans to this fact. These are good guidelines but are not really anything new except YP BSA guidelines have been thrown in. I know some BSA leaders who think that if a few words or pictures are used by a scout on a personal web page that they deem a "offensive" media conversation or video then the BSA guide lines including YP guidelines should be used to control that situation. Does the BSA have the right to control a Scouts personal media page just because he/she is known as a scout and has other scouts "befriended" on that page? I actually know scout leaders who say that the BSA Media Guide should also be be brought into play when a scout is on ANY type of public media outlet. Anybody remember the book "1984" by George Orwell?

I understand National has the right to try and control what is presented on Public media outlets basically used one way or another to teach, communicate or inform scouts, parents or the general public about scouting. BUT if its a personal page then they have no control over it.

Lets hope that on those occasions a scout searches himself and decides to follow the wisdom and guidance contained in the Scout Oath and law before posting something that may offend anybody.

A meeting to be held Monday night. The SM has had to talk to several adults on this matter and he is ticked off. There is now talk about trying to remove the SM as well as me. This is getting out of hand to the point that I may have to approach the IH for his opinion. We are a large church and he has very little to do with the scouts.

Here it is. The SM will talk to him. He is still out of town. The SM will request that he apologize. I understand that most of you think that the scout need not apologize but that is the SM's decision, he has his reasons. He has been in scouting 20 years. There have been threats of 3 adults taking there kids and leaving. He will talk to them and explain this course of action and if it does not satisfy them then they can walk.

I am not going to produce the file. It uses language like M***F**** on several occasions. FU on more occasions. Talks about girls having orgasms so on so forth. It also uses most all the lesser cuss words. You just have to take my word for it. Thanks for the advice.

Look guys it is not a contract, its a statement that in all areas of his life he will hold up the morals and values that are embedded in the Scout oath and law and do so daily. Just a tool used to let him know that he has entered leadership in the scouts and that eyes are now upon him. He is in the spotlight. Both youth and adult leaders are watching and following his lead. Our adults are also held to high standards. Pray tell what is wrong with that?

Believe it are not, Yes an adult would be approached if they put something up on his Facebook like this scout did and if on that same Facebook page he also had touted all his adventures in Scouting and mentioned the Troop regularly as this Scout does. Yes he probably would be approached. Why? Because eyes are upon the troop through him.

Before it starts, NO we do not monitor scout/adult media sites. We do not have spies following people around. He is not going to be asked to resign. The SM decided that right off the bat.

My response to the situation is to back the SM. He sees no need in further embarrassing the boy. He is going to have a long talk with him. His stance is if the "concerned" parents do not like how he handles it ,then they can walk.

Just to let you know the video I started to watch was so full of vulgar language and innuendo that I stopped it after 30 seconds. It is still posted on his face book page. He will reap consequences outside our troop that I have no control over. He was (and I hope still is) well thought of by just more than our troop. He is well known by the whole Area Council.

To be frank the way we have been doing things have worked out for our troop quite nicely. Its spelled out in black and White. The CO is a large Church. We are known as a praying troop. Our unit number has biblical meaning. Our boys are known for being polite and well behaved yet have fun. NO we are not strict disciplinarians. We let the boys run the troop. That is a fact. It is what I call the helicopter parents who are the ones up in arms. They want to run the troop like a Cub Pack and we are trying to stop it.

We have plenty of good youth leaders and our procedures have seemed to help shape and grow good new leaders. No problem there. P>(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

Most Troops have standards that the Scout should obtain before he is elected into a scout office. For instance we like our SPL to be at least 13, hold a First class rank, attend so many camp outs, wear his Scout uniform, attend at least 75% of regular Scout meetings so on so forth. We also explain to him that we expect him to adhere to the Scout Oath and Law in all aspects of his public life. This is explained to all of our "office" holders and they are required to read (with a parent or guardian present) and sign a statement that they will adhere to these standards in and out of scouting. There lies the problem. To a certain extent I personally believe he violated this standard.

Consider when you go up for a promotion at work. You are expected to have reached certain goals, met training requirements and are usually judged on your interaction with your fellow employees. You also may be required to hold up to certain standards in your public life. You pass on all accounts and are promoted. If you then let down your Employer by poor job performance at work or get caught in a compromising situation that directly violates said terms of employment (even though it happened in a private situation that was not work related) are you not in trouble? After all you agreed to the terms before you took on the job. The employer then has to make a decision on what line of tack he/she will take. That depends on the nature of the offense and how serious he /she deems the damage to be. If this is your first offense of this nature and have several years of exemplary employment I should think that the employer would be a little lenient with the stipulation that you will be watched and it better not happen again.

We are dealing with a barely 16 year old boy who in essence violated the terms of his contract as put before him when he was installed as SPL. Now as an "employer" do I choose to hit him hard or use the situation to show leniency and guide him and mentor him? After all he has been a very good employee (Scout) for 10 years. Yes a few hiccups along the way, but nothing of this nature. The employer (SM who by the way was also his Tiger Cub Leader) has chosen the latter. It is my position to back him.

On what Scoutnut said about BSA Media Guidelines is the position I took about the BSA "Media Guide Suggestions" when I talked to the DE. These Guide lines are aimed at the use of Media outlets used in communications by troops, patrols etc. who use the social media to discuss Scouting matters . They are good guide lines for Scouters. The basis for them in IMHO is the combination of YP regulations, Scout Oath and Law and normal internet guidelines that have been around for years about the steps you need to take to be "Safe" when using public media on the internet. They are not meant to be used to govern personal media sites.(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

I happen to be the CC/COR so that is the reason I am involved and that is the reason I talked to the SM and the DE and the DE is the one who let me know that he was approached by "Concerned parents". He is not really sticking his nose in it. I originally went to him and asked him what he thought about the BSA "Media Guide lines" and of he thought that that should be thrown in the kid's face . These parents seem to think that those guidelines ought to be enforced on a "Scout" personal page. That is another discussion.

Kudu, yes the video is on you tube,(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

The Scout in question is with a OA group hiking at a location several hundred miles from here. As far as I know he does not have a clue as to what a stir he has caused by posting that video. Our troop is considered to be the best troop in our District (per DE) which cover 4 counties. Up until now he was considered by many to be one of the best SPL's in the District. He is an outstanding speaker, writes articles about Scouting for the local newspaper and has published a book about his trip to the 2010 Jambo.

I had a talk with our DE and found out that "concerned" parents have talked to him. He believes that this is not a dismissal offense but feels that the boy needs to face the consequences of his action. As part of his discipline I am going to suggest that he faces the Troop, apologizes and works on and gives a talk on the "Suggested Media Guidelines" that BSA National has out and when you are in BSA leadership you are a recognizable "Face" for the troop and must act accordingly in all situations.

By the way one of the "offended leaders" does not even let his kids get on face book. Ages 12 AND 14.(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

Well our 16 year old SPL has posted a video on Facebook (not him) on his personal page that basically uses a lot of cuss words to describe a situation about interracial dating and since he is Facebook friends with the younger boy's in the troop they also had access to this video. No sexy scenes just a lot of cussing describing situations. He himself happens to be a product of a interracial marriage. He is a very good SPL but is a little heavy handed when he deals with the adults. Lets just say as a SPL of a boy led troop he lets the adults know he is in charge. He has stepped on a few toes.

To make matters worse he is also (unofficially)the Troop Chaplain. Well he has disappointed me as well as others in doing this. We have some of these leaders wanting him to step down and if he does not then they may leave the troop. I talked to the SM and he thinks that we do not need to hang the boy. He wants him to offer a deep apology and learn his lesson and move on. He says if the other Scout leaders want to walk away over this then so be it. The boy has been an exemplary scout and has never been out of line as far as it comes to cussing or acting out. Any advice.

(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

Again we are considered the top troop out of 45 troops in our district. He is getting plenty of adult leader interaction and He is very involved in the troop. I dare say he is far from being bored. I personally thinks he like to draw attention to himself. Period. You know look at me syndrome. He is stubborn and likes to get his way. The kids in the troop look up to him and he is a good kid. I explained to him that I believe that the loop thing is against BSA policy and he is considered out of uniform. I have explained that the younger kids look up to him and he needs to set an example by sticking to BSA uniform policy. I explained to him that if does it the younger kids may start doing it. He informed me that the only way that he would stop wearing them in that manner is that I show him a BSA policy that specifically states that he can not wear his loops that way. He is standing on the principle that if there is NO spelled out specific regulation that you cannot do it then it is OK to do it. Funny, I know adult Scouters who do the same thing.(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

Let me make a clarification here. He wears a orange loop on his left shoulder and a green loop on his right shoulder. Two different color loops one on each shoulder. On page 159 of the SM hand book you find this "While scouters may wear the insignia to which they are entitled , a total display may not be in the best interest if the uniform looks overdecorated. Unauthorized insignia or incorrect wearing of authorized insignia is always wrong. Scouters must set the example for scouts in this matter. The SM who wears only his SM emblem, council or community strip,troop numeral and service star on his uniform is never guilty of poor taste" As far as the District patch so be it. I still am of the opinion he needs to wear only onset of the same color loops. He in my humble opinion is improperly wearing them having a orange loop on one shoulder and a green loop on the other.

By the way are troop is not boring and is considered by many to be the top troop in the district. In our district The OA has nothing on us as a whole. I am in the OA as well as my son. Our troop is very active in it. Our Scoutmaster is an OA advisor and this young man holds an office in the OA.

I have a young man in my troop who wears 2 different shoulder loops. On one shoulder he wears an orange loop (NYLT) and on the other shoulder he wears a green loop. Is this normal and is there any BSA regulation that would specifically allow or disallow this? He also has been appointed

(at the age of 16)as the District Committee Youth liaison and wears a District Committee Shoulder patch. How can he be on this committee when (Per BSA reg.) he can not be on a troop committee until he is 18?

I do not dislike the boy or his father. As I stated as a kid he is OK but as a Scout he stunk. No I am not going to be or appoint anyone to be on the BOR. The Districts Eagle Advancement Chair will be on it along with 3 other SM's and a Youth Minister from the CO. Yes he will be questioned extensively. He is a charming lad and smart. He plays stupid but he isn't. In the past in BOR's when asked a question he says he is so nervous that he can not remember the answer. Well he is going to have all night to answer what he is asked. If you call this an inquisition so be it. We even have doubts that he knows the Scout Oath, Law or Motto, We will find out. He will be getting his Eagle rank no doubt. Who knows he might surprise us.

This was a problem of our own making. We let it go to far. In all honesty as a kid he is OK, but as a scout he stunk. As it turns out the SM was there and he did sign off on the project being completed. He had talked to the man in charge of the facility that the work was done for. He was very pleased and actually more or less said that he was impressed with the boy. He said he met with him on several occasions about the project and that the boys Father was not present. One thing that irks me a little is the boys father put in almost as much time himself as the other participants did put together. I am not going to deliberately stand in the way of this boy getting his Eagle rank. It will be given to him though he did not really earn it. I will say this I would not want to be in his shoes at Eagle BOR time.

As CC I am being asked to sign off on a Scouts Eagle project. I was there at the project and I really did not see him provide what I would call a leadership position to a great degree. His father has been the main thrust in the project. Besides that this kid does not care about scouting. His Dad bribed him with a car to stay in scouts. When he wears the uniform (shirt only) he kept it covered with a jacket or sweater. The day he helped with scouting for food he immediately removed his shirt and threw it in the back of his car when we arrived back at the church. I almost would rather resign as to see this kid get Eagle. He has done other things like vandalizing a fellow scouts vehicle, getting caught and arrested then never told or admitted to the other scout that he did it or apologized for it. He thinks he got away with it. His father has never even mentioned it either.There are other things. The point being that today is his LAST day before he turns 18 and I do not want to sign. I am literally thinking about resigning as CC so I will not have to sign. Drastic I know. To make natters WORSE I am also COR but I AM AT A quandary as to what to do. The vandalized kids father is livid that we would even think about giving this kid his Eagle. My son who is an Eagle says giving this kid his Eagle would be a disservice to him and all the other Eagles that did it the right way. The offended boys (vandalized) father is and has been the backbone of the troop for years and says he is going to back out. I do not believe this kid to be Eagle material and do not even consider him a good scout. Please spare me how did it get this far. I know we goofed up. My question is can the SM or anybody else sign off on the Unit Leader signature line on project completion and spare me from doing that.(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

OK thanks.

Last nighI posted a topic labeled "Parents as merit badge counselors" or something like that and got a couple of responses whuch I appreciated. Then I come in from work this afternoon the whole topic was removed. I do not understand. Explanation please????I would not post this here but do not know how to contact a moderator to ask this question. I know this post will also get deleted but at least I asked the question.

I know that this probably has been addressed on this board before, but please humor me. We have a parent in our troop (Type A plus personality) who home schools his kids. He has signed up for over 20 merit badges ( several Eagle required) and teaches the merit badges at home as if they are "lesson's". At almost every COH his kids haul in the badges. Yes I realize that a portion of some merit badges requirements include family involvement and are to take place at a home setting. I also know that National has no rules limiting him to a certian number of badges he can counsel his kids on. Having also HS my kids We on occasion also used lessons that would include some merit badge requirements that related to the lesson at hand. But we kept it to a minimum.

He is a "helicopter" parent who hovers over them and will not let his kids learn from making mistakes. If the kids mess up on cooking a meal on a campout he will take over and "cook" for them and "show" them how its done. If the kids do not wash dishes in the evening or clean up their area on their own he will jump in see that its done. In the past he would wash the dishes himself.

In similair situations What other leaders did was get the boy's up an hour earlier in the morning or wake them up in the middle of the night and have them clean up the mess from the prior evening and then the next morning have them immediatly clean up after breakfast before they could get the day started. We let the kids burn a meal or botch it up some other way a couple of times and then step in and give them a hands on refresher course on "cooking".

After a few of these lessons they would learn.

Another thing he does (along with the advancement chair) is make boy's who have earned certian merit badges at summer camp re-do the merit badges to a certian extent under the auspices of not trusting that they really understood and earned them at summer camp. The Advance chair will not sign off on them or register the partial requirements on blue cards until they are re-tested so to speak. Yes I do know that some summer camps "fudge" on the requirements but I take the position as to not second guess them.

Its just unsettling to me. So here is the question. Is it possible for a troop to write by laws "Suggesting" or setting a concrete limit to the number of badges that a parent can counsel his kids on. I mean lets get real. Whats to stop a person from being the primary counselor on all the merit badges he wanted to. Except in a "Lone Wolf" situation or a lousy troop there is no call for it. We are far from a lousy troop. Considered to be one of the top troops in the disrict. There are plenty of opportunities for our scouts to earn merit badges. But this way just doesn't set with me.