cjmiam

Scouters, I see, know and live your dilemma as well. I will keep my commentary short. If a mother doesnt teach her child to not play in the street, they may very well play in the street. If a father doesnt teach his son the dangers of guns, they may very well find out the consequences on their own. If their pastor doesnt teach the dangers of dealing with the devil, they may find out the hard way. Im not sure whos responsible for teaching sexuality. I certainly know that Im not too comfortable leaving it up to my local school district. I believe everyone is very aware of the BSAs stand on the matter and for that reason, why would it be unreasonable to assume that they may teach what they preach? Im not talking about 1.5 hour lectures, but Im not talking about ignoring or wandering away from the issue either. I personally feel a responsibility to talk with my Scouts about any issue they want. Remember, many kids dont feel comfortable talking to their parents about some issues. If they ask and sometimes if they dont ask, I talk to them about guns, drugs, God, knots, lashings, helping others, camping, wilderness survival, stealing, suicide, and sex. These often times arent planned program topics, but come up out of the blue. All that Im saying is that I hope that we as leaders dont feel we must cower away, dig a hole and try to ignore the issue. I pray that God will give you the words, wisdom and courage to say what is best.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to read all the threads. However, it seems to me that it should be up to the tax payers of the individual school district to decide. Like all other referendums, it could be decided by a simple majority. There are many issues approved and disapproved this way. I believe a majority of Americans currently agree with the BSA. Further, I believe a majority of Americans believe the BSA is a healthy addition to their community. Since we live in a democracy, everyone is free to voice their opinion and vote. If a majority feels in favor, it ends the dilemma. There will always be those that disagree, but the beautiful thing about the country in which we live is that we can voice our opinions openly and freely. I may not believe that the district needs a new school, but 51% may believe that we do. That means 49% that dont believe we need a new school may be paying for one anyway. We live in a democracy. Let us never forget what millions of Americans fought and died for. We live in a country of law and order, free from oppression, where majority rules. If 51% of Americans believe tax dollars should be spent on character development through Scouting, so be it. If 51% of Americans believe Scout units and other organizations should be able to use their buildings, so be it. Remember, the buildings belong to the people. The laws are laws of the people. We as Americans decide what is best for our country. I have faith in America, in God and in our system of government. I believe that truth and justice will prevail through the voice of the people. And oh yes, if 51% of the school district believes that each school day should start with a prayer, I believe that is right as well.

Please understand, I am not attacking you or anyone personally, however, I believe most of the answers to your questions are very clearly printed in the current Boy Scout Handbook and have been a part of this program since the first printing, A Handbook for Boys. I get the feeling that people are trying to re-write the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law to fit their own personal needs, because the current meaning is not convenient to them. Just because something is difficult to live by does not mean that it should be changed to something of a lesser standard.

You ask what specifically says no gays? Well, I'd urge you to better understand the program of the Boy Scouts of America. Never has the BSA attacked, named or waged war on any group or individual. However, it has stated its values. If the BSA had added "A Scout is Not Gay" to the Scout Law, it seems to me that it would have been very un-Scoutlike and out of the aims of the program, not to mention specifically calling attention to a certain group. We don't attack others for their beliefs, we simply state our beliefs and hence others are attacking us. Tell me, where is the injustice? If I start a program in my neighborhood and set the standards for membership, which includes belonging to a church, being pro-life, being straight, and being a kind, respectful and friendly person, you are telling me that I can't? You are telling me that you can decide who my members are? You are telling me that I need to change my membership standards because they dont coincide with your beliefs?!?!

Just because an organization is successful at doing what it does and gains the support of millions of people, does not mean that the organization becomes a public entity. Remember what got the organization where it is today. The organization has not survived and flourished for 90 years because it had unclear values or simplistic membership requirements. The organization is and continues to be the best organization for character development in the world, because it hasnt faltered in its standards!

OldGreyEagle, you know the BSA's answer to that one. Im sure they would be encouraging a youth-ran program. However, between you and me, I didnt get my troop and team from 0 to 45 by only allowing the boys to run it. Theres nothing wrong with the 16 year old Scout running the crew, but remember you have a lot more knowledge and experience. I suggest either sharing your ideas and getting them to buy into it or just do it yourself with the other leaders (at least initially). Work the program around their schedule and make it cool, fun, adventurous, exciting, and before long, theyll be knocking at your door to join. And many will even choose that campout before a dance. It happened last weekend with 15 of my older Varsity Scouts that had a dance Saturday night! Happy Scouting!

Listen, if you want to think that defining what being trustworthy means is open to a lot of interpretation, thats fine, just dont come around my troop. There is a very clear line when it comes to trust with my Scouts. If I tell them, well ya know, I really could go either way on that trust thing, `cause it could mean oh so many different things, and ya know it really doesnt matter in the long-run anyway, after all who am I to say what trust is. Give me a break! Just what am I teaching them? It does them no service to say there are no absolutes. And their parents expect me as their Scoutmaster to teach them the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law. Oh yes, it may be my interpretation, but it is certainly not unclear what the words mean, unless youre an attorney or past president I suppose.

I do have a lesbian family member and I do love her very much. Would I let her be a leader in my Scout troop? Absolutely Not! She comes with her friend and is very welcome at Christmas time, the Holidays ect. She is a very welcomed member of our family. However, it is very much inconsistent with the values and morality of our family. Listen, Id give my left lung for her, but she still cant be in my Scout troop!!!

An "ideal" family has a mom and a dad with healthy children. Call me whatever you like, but I would bet all the divorced family moms and dads out there would agree, that being divorced is not something one should strive for. I never said that they were bad people, but if there is no ideal family, then it's like saying there is nothing to strive for. If a family doesn't have both parents, I'm NOT saying it's a bad family! You are drawing your own conclusions, instead what I'm saying is that the "ideal" family has both parents- a mom and a dad.

Is this old fashioned thinking? Probably. And I don't really care if it's not politically correct. Im not saying these things to appease anyone. I do believe this is an issue of morality. Yes indeed!!! Because I and (we) the overwhelming majority of the vast civilization, believe homosexuality is wrong. That is the whole argument, you think two guys having sex with each other is fine, but most dont. God didnt intend that or he would have made them reproducible. If a species cant survive as a species, it dies.

And thus, will enter the name calling and the attacks on my character right? Well, I must be a homophobe, closed-minded, bigot, etc, etc, etc right? Absolutely not! Just because I dont agree with you does NOT mean I hate gays or that I think the world should cast them over a cliff. Remember my last statement, God said to love one another, not agree with one another. I have a major problem with people that try to instill their belief system on me and the rest of society. Especially the ones that claim others are being discriminatory if they dont want to hang-out with them because of it. Why should I and rest of the BSA have to change? This is an issue of morality. Just like the Right to Life people believe it is wrong to kill unborn children. You wouldnt expect them to be allowing pro-abortion people to be members now would you? But because they dont allow pro-abortion people to be members theyre discriminating? Give me a break!

Yeah, Mike is definitely right. You gotta have a program. And it cant just be the same thing they did as younger Scouts. It has to offer them more adventure. We started a Varsity Team for our older boys. We do activities separate and in conjunction with the troop. Ive got about 20 boys over the age of 14 in our program. They dont all come at once, well except for spring break when we normally do a big cross-country trip. You have to be understanding of their schedule and not make all-or-nothing demands. Work around their schedules and reference the school/athletic schedule when planning your events. Dont make them choose between Scouts and a game or a dance! Those kids need Scouting probably the most of any of the age groups in Scouting, because of the other negative social pressures put on them. At this stage, they really need a big-brother type of person that they can talk to about stuff. Additionally, encourage them to invite their friends into the program. Best of luck and thanks for providing a special program for older boys!

Yes there is a Scout Executives Oath. Don't think you'll find it on the Net. Why don't you ask you local Executive? I'm sure they'd be happy to share it with you.

I used to endorse the full Class A uniform. At one time in my life, I was a camp director and program director. I always harped on my staff about setting the example. Then I noticed that we did not have one single troop in our council that wore the entire Class A uniform. I started an incentive program at our summer camp. Each troop that came to camp in full uniform would get free pizza instead of one of the regular meals. After about 2 or 3 years, we had about 5 troops in full uniform. Now however, I encourage all of my Scouts to go down to Target and get a pair of Dockers. After all, they can buy about 3 pairs of Dockers and wear them to school for the cost of one pair of Official BSA pants.

I wrote the National Supply Division and informed them that it would cost over $125 to outfit a Scout in full uniform. I received no response- go figure. Im sorry but I find it very sad that while the Boy Scouts push the full uniform, they make it impossible for probably 75% of its members to buy one.

I too get a kick form those posed pictures in Scouting and Boys Life. Give me a break- I have a hard enough time getting Scouts to remember just their shirt at meetings.

As a member of Lions International, I strongly urge all units and Scouters in need of places to hold meetings to contact their local club. The Lions wholeheartedly believe in Scouting and support hundreds of troops across this great nation.

Well, WoodBadger I disagree. I dont believe compromising is an option. The parents of my 45 Scouts had their kids join my troop because it fit with their values. I dont think our boys program is at stake at all. Unfortunately society seems to be forgetting what a family is. Remember the good `ol days when we used to eat together and pray together? Well, its been lost in a society that clutters the minds of children telling them that anything goes and that there are no moral absolutes. And in the name of inclusiveness we all just need to get along and accept one another. Well, believe me, I can love others and not agree with them. Why is it that the BSA should have to change the moral foundation on which its rested upon for 90 years? All in the name of acceptance? I think not! There is a reason why parents choose Scouting and continue to choose Scouting. It is the most complete program that teaches kids the values that they hold most dear. If others disagree, might I suggest that they start another organization, because the parents of my Scouts like it just the way it is.

God commanded that we love one another, not agree with one another!

By the way WoodBadger, if you dont mind me asking, what course did you attend?

Look folks, I'm not sure what side of the isle you sit on, but I'd have to say that the past 8 years haven't been very good morally for this great nation. But theres light now and I think were going to see some things turn around. All we need are people willing to stand up and fight. The ACLUs sole purpose is to attack anyone that has a mission different from their own. They think we all should just check our ethics, morality and membership guidelines at the door in the name of acceptance. When I say fight, I dont mean that we need to draw arms. Rather, we should be willing to stand up and let people know who we are and what were about. We need to let people know how good Scouting is. We need to remind people constantly what our Mission is. And we need to be above the tactics of the ACLU. Theyre not going to crawl into a hole, but if our membership stood up with all of our supporters, believe me, we would outnumber them 10 to 1! Lets not forget who won in our nations highest court. In the end I guarantee that the winner will not be the one that calls the other the most names Keep your head up and if one door goes shut, Im confident another five will open.

From a page on the Web-

"Accordingly, the Agnostic Church seeks to discover the true nature of God, not excluding the question of whether God exists or not, by encouraging further scientific research and the gathering together (and integrating as a whole system of thought) of the entirety of knowledge known to all individuals throughout the universe."

Now read page 54 in the current 11th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook.

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

In other words:

1. There is a God.

2. Do whatever your religion tells you to do with regard to item #1.

3. Understand that others may not have a 1 or 2, but respect them anyway.

Since the Web page stated "not excluding the question of whether God exists or not", it would seem that agnosticism is not acceptable in the BSA, because they are more or less in the "undecided" column...

Hooray for all three posters! Im glad youre not attacking the United Way (UW). Overall it is a very good organization and has done a lot of wonderful things for communities. Unfortunately, like TheCommish says, there are a few people that know how to use the press. They are making it their job to advance their own political agenda by manipulating others.

I believe what people need to do is

1. Promote the Good things that Scouting does. I constantly remind Scouters to submit positive news to the local papers and TV stations. Its a lot harder to wage a case against a group that practices helping other people at all times.

2. Let your local chapter of the UW know that you support Scouting and want them to continue their support. Believe me, if the UW knows that they will lose a great deal of financial support, theyre not going to wage a war against the BSA.

3. If your UW has already ceased funding dont sit back and crawl into a hole! Write your paper, send letters and call the UW, and urge others to do the same. Its a sad day in our society when a few (very few) can dictate societys morality.

Overall the whole thing seems ridiculous. How many millions of Americans believe in Scouting? How many millions of Americans believe that the Scout Oath and Law should be something every human being strives to follow? How many millions of Americans believe in traditional family values? And how many of these millions give dollars to the UW? My belief is that its a lot! Its time we take back America and remind people that having values is important and that building Character shouldnt be a lost cause. Accepting others shouldnt require that we leave our values at the wayside.

Personally, Id rather to be broke than live without morals.

You're wrong. Page 389 of the (current) 11th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook clearly states "bathe regularly- once a day if you can." I dont consider that open for much interpretation. As a Scoutmaster, do I monitor this? Yes- Not in person of course but in a manner consistent with the role of a Scoutmaster.

Duty to God? Whats so subjective about page 54? It plainly states A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. This is very consistent with what we teach, which is actually very un-subjective.

1. There is a God.

2. Do whatever your religion tells you to do with regard to item #1.

3. Understand that others may not have a 1 or 2, but respect them anyway.

And youre wrong again, the values in the Oath and Law are not highly subjective or open to interpretation. Since the foundation of your argument is based on an incorrect premise, it would follow that the rest of your argument is unsubstantiated. What is so highly subjective about trustworthiness, loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, courteousness, kindness, obedience, cheerfulness, thriftiness, bravery, cleanliness, or reverence? Are you one of those people trying to figure out what the meaning of is is?

Nonetheless, I will answer your question. You have questioned the National Councils policy regarding sexual orientation. You have questioned what part of the Scout Law or Oath directly says no gays? Well, if you didnt look to page 389 to find out how many times you should shower, I doubt if you looked on page 371 which talks about Your Family. Line 5 says father and mother. The entire page is a very good resource about what the BSA believes a family is. All throughout history, it has been well accepted that families are what makes up Scouting. The BSA believed so much in the importance of the family, that it added Family Life as a required merit badge for Eagle in 1994.

The Boy Scouts of America has selected its leaders using the highest standards because strong leaders and positive role models are so important to the healthy development of youth. Today, the organization still stands firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law.

Dont private organizations have a right to determine the standards required for its members in leadership positions? I have chosen Scouting because it fits with my set of beliefs. Many parents have chosen Scouting for the same reason. They want leaders that are consistent and inline with their own beliefs. Having the opposite would be counterproductive, inconsistent with the familys beliefs, the Mission of the BSA, and each group's definition or morality. And of course Scouts keeps himself "morally straight"!

Remember, God commanded that we love one another, not that we agree with one another

So are saying that because we live in America, (the greatest country on earth) that anything goes? Are you claiming that unless we agree with everyone, we are bigots, hateful and prejudicial? Are you trying to say that we are not allowed to have beliefs, values, and morals?

Pardon me, but membership in the BSA is not a right, it is a privilege.

How unfortunate it is that you should draw the conclusion that exercising a constitutional right to freely associate, as being un-American. Do you claim it is more American to tell other people what they should believe or think and who they should hang out with?

You failed to mention the fact that the Boy Scouts discriminate against more than just homosexuals. In fact, the Boy Scouts discriminate against, people that don't agree to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Listen, this isn't your local shopping club. This is an organization of values. Everyone has different values, but we in the BSA have a long-standing set of values that we agreed to when we joined. That is why most of us joined and why many continue to enroll their son in our program.

Scouting isn't a right- it's a privilege. If you aren't willing to abide by what it stands for, might I suggest starting a different group, instead of trying to change the BSA? Many millions like the BSA just the way it is! God commanded us to love one another, not necessarily agree with one another!

By the way, I believe the millions of servicemen that fought for, died for and continue to serve this beautiful country, that were past Boy Scouts would disagree with your patch-cutting ceremony

So are saying that because we live in America, (the greatest country on earth) that anything goes? Are you claiming that unless we agree with everyone, we are bigots, hateful and prejudicial? Are you trying to say that we are not allowed to have beliefs, values, and morals?

Pardon me, but membership in the BSA is not a right, it is a privilege.

How unfortunate it is that you should draw the conclusion that exercising a constitutional right to freely associate, as being un-American. Do you claim it is more American to tell other people what they should believe or think and who they should hang out with?

You failed to mention the fact that the Boy Scouts discriminate against more than just homosexuals. In fact, the Boy Scouts discriminate against, people that don't agree to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Listen, this isn't your local shopping club. This is an organization of values. Everyone has different values, but we in the BSA have a long-standing set of values that we agreed to when we joined. That is why most of us joined and why many continue to enroll their son in our program.

Scouting isn't a right- it's a privilege. If you aren't willing to abide by what it stands for, might I suggest starting a different group, instead of trying to change the BSA? Many millions like the BSA just the way it is! God commanded us to love one another, not necessarily agree with one another!

By the way, I believe the millions of servicemen that fought for, died for and continue to serve this beautiful country, that were past Boy Scouts would disagree with your patch-cutting ceremony