cjmiam

Oh yes, I am most certain that the Central Region must have one before June. I went to one about 7 years back somtime in March I belive... It's been too long. I would just contact the Central Region office. You should be able to get the number from your local council. If you can't let me know and I'll search my files. Later.

By the way- Aquatics??? geez why don't you do something easier for you last year? Try Camp Director training or something

Maybe there would be less discussion about the official uniform if everyone could afford wearing it. I'm sorry, but $40 for pants is excessive. I once encouraged kids to wear the official uniform, but now I encourage anything green. And to be honest I really don't care. If the BSA wants kids to wear the uniform, then they need to make it affordable to the average Scout. Making money off of kids, especially when they change 2 or 3 sizes in a year is downright disgusting. As I recall, (and I'm not going to waste my time looking it up in some book) but as I recall, the uniform is in part to show unity and equality. I see no reason why that can't be accomplished in other ways that don't cost $110 to outfit. All you uniform nuts can send me all your extra money and Ill waste it on subsidizing my Scouts uniforms, because we have better things to spend our money on. Give me a break!

Maybe location does play a role. If a group of adults saw a bunch of kids wearing camo around here, they'd figure they'd be going hunting.

Pwlane: My Scouts know how they are to act while in or out of their uniform. If they act differently depending on what type of clothes they are wearing, then I'm not doing my job.

And the saga continues people are going to think whatever they want, which is because we live in America. I guess it just seems silly that some people believe it is necessary to ban a type of clothing that is associated with the people that gave us the freedom to wear it. My last statistics show that about 1 of every 2 Scouts goes on to join the service. Is this because they like wearing camo or because of they love America and want to serve it? If some of you think that wearing camo is going to somehow transform the person wearing it into a militaristic killing machine, I question what youre teaching your Scouts. I always thought that we were to teach our Scouts to act like Scouts in and out of uniform. Seems to me like a great test would be by encouraging them to wear camo on Scout functions. Again, I think those of you that want to ban camo are nuts, but hey isnt it great to live in America?

I can't believe this has come up again... but since it has let me recall my last thoughts... oh yeah, "give me a break". If by simply wearing camo makes you paramilitary, then there are a lot of bow hunters that want to be in the army. Camo is a type of clothing that makes you fit in with your surroundings. It doesn't mean you're trying to be in the military. When some kids play capture the flag in camo and others in black shirts and jeans, does that mean that those wearing camo want to be in the army and those in black want to be robbers or Johny Cash? No, it means they don't want to be seen by their opponent. Once again, give me a break

and since they boys (PLC) plan the program and schedule, its their fault if dates conflict in the first place. Im sure that they boys wouldnt plan a campout on homecoming weekend now would they? However, an adult Im not so sure about

gee wiz- don't we all... i can't count the number of things i've tried to do all at once or everything i've tried to be somewhat active in. i recently joined our local Lions club and i thought, man that's all i need, but they are pretty easy going people, and i guess they're okay with me just visiting once in a while. i guess they're just thankful to have someone else with the same interests join them. i think it's okay to be active, just so long as you're not letting others down like Rooster7 alluded to. really, it's okay for kids to do a lot of stuff. most kids can handle it very well. as for their parents, well that's another story. if their grades suffer- then it'll have to be dealt with. but no one should be discouraged from living life, meeting new friends, being involved in their community, joining clubs, helping others more than themselves, etc. there's no way Scouting or school can teach them everything...

Stan I agree with you as well however, I must respond to OldGreyEagle.

OGE, Im very sorry if I somehow offended you or anyones personal religious convictions or beliefs. I was not trying to proclaim anything about salvation or that reading the bible would get you personally into heaven. The point was intended to discuss fanatics, fringe, etc. I get the feeling you read more into that part of my post. Im not sure how it appeared that I was trying to shove anything down your throat. Im sorry if youve had some past negative experiences with religion or a certain faith Im not sure why you equate my profession of faith to saying youre wrong. Just because I speak my faith, which may differ from yours does not mean that Im saying youre wrong or that Im better than you. What I was trying to say that is that if they have peace in their heart, good for them. (Disclaimer: that is if you believe in peace or have a heart, all those that dont believe in peace or have a heart I apologize, please disregard the previous sentence.)

The original settlers were seeking freedom which is what all of us have. This freedom includes practicing our faith, beliefs, and customs without being ridiculed. Id like to believe that we can all be secure enough, so that we are willing to let others speak with views or beliefs different from our own without attacking them. If things dont work out we can all just ask for forgiveness I guess. (Disclaimer: that is if you believe in asking for forgiveness, all those that dont believe in forgiveness I apologize, please disregard the previous sentence.)

In other news, I do have a lesbian cousin that I love very much. Im not sure how her mind works, and I certainly cant imagine what its like to be her. Facts are simple: I do still lover her, but theres no way I can ever agree with her sexuality. Many of her thoughts and actions (because of her sexuality) disgust me. Shes welcome to come to my house for dinner, but not go camping with my troop or be a role model for my children. God commanded that we love one another not that we must agree with one another. (Disclaimer: that is if you believe in God, all those that dont believe in God I apologize, please disregard the previous sentence).

Excellent words of wisdom stan and kevin. It reminds me of the `ol man walking on the beach with the thousands of starfish that washed up after the storm. The man was throwing each of them one at a time back into the ocean. A young boy came along and asked why he was doing this when there were thousands upon thousands, how could it matter? The `ol man replied, because it matters to this one and threw it back into the ocean. There are a lot of kids out there that need all the help they can get. Each one of them matters and each one of them has the potential to do anything they put their mind to.

If there are any troops that do not wish to help certain ones based on attendance or other reasons, please consider pointing them in the direction of another troop that does. Id certainly hate to see a boy that needs Scouting be turned away because hes involved in the game of life.

If kids dont learn how to do many things well at an early age, theyre sure going to have problems when: the presentation is tomorrow, the order is late, the dog needs to be picked up from the vet, no mothers day present yet, pick up kids after ya get the dog, buy groceries, change oil in car, mow the lawn, fix the roof, etc, etc, etc.

Scouting should compliment life not complicate it!

Chris

I wholeheartedly agree with sst3rd. If you build it they will come! "You" meaning the collective effort of the troop. Yes, everyone involved in adult Scouting faces this opportunity. My saying has always been that "Scouting should compliment life, not complicate it". There is a lot going on for a boy. My advice is to not make them choose. There have been some Scouts in my troop that have taken 3 months off for football. I have even gone to watch a few games. I have yet to see the coach at one of our Court of Honors... Nontheless, that's besides the point. Put it in this perspective. Just imagine if that kid does come to one of your events and learns the meaning of trust, or why it's important to help one another, or how to save another persons life. Wouldn't that make keeping him on the roster just the best thing you ever did for him? Granted there are some that just don't care, but please don't let that make you not care.

Just some thoughts...

CJM

Oh this is a very old thread, but I think there is some confusion on the side of liquid fuel regulations. It is fine to use but according to the BSA's Mandatory camp standard number @#@$, all extra liquid fuels are to be locked in a fireproof container clearly marked flamable. In other words, those bottles of extra fuel really aren't to just be laying around in your Scout's tents!!!

As far as stoves, I like my Weber grill

Well, I believe that the LAGALABATATA would probably represent a good majority of people of that nature and even be recognized by some national organization of people that believe in that stuff. I believe considering it a fringe of the group would be inaccurate. Ask yourself, what would people of that walk of life dream about- fantasize about? Got a good picture in your mind???

Nonetheless, I dont like radical comparisons. Id much rather people see others as enthused and not necessarily fanatics. My fellow Christians can thump their Bible all they want, and if they do it with peace in their heart, they will have no fear come the Judgment Day. Let there be no doubt that there a lot of enthused individuals in the gay rights movement. What we need are more enthused people in the moral rights movement!

Disregarding acts by gays just because some straights act improperly is wrong. Lets use humans as our yardstick and not differentiate by group. It seems people always try to lessen the standards by calling attention to others faults. Humans should deem homosexuality as wrong just as they should deem adultery as wrong. Lets not say its okay because some others in a different group have screwed up as well. Remember, Scouts never threw a stone, but by golly they certainly better remember the 10th point of the Scout Law and be brave enough to stand up for their beliefs!

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

I wholeheartedly agree with you chanoneescouter, with the exception of one thing, but I won't go there.

I think the sad reality is that a lot of the kids in Scouting do see their Scoutmaster much like the dad they wish they had. For many of the single parent kids out there, Scouting is more a family than their blood relation is.

As far as your bumper sticker... I can only pray that it's right.

While we can raise our kids the best way we know how, it sure doesn't help to have mixed messages from people that should know better. Nor does it help to see a ton of advertising from groups that seem like they are in business to put family values out of business.

Hooray for leaders, that through adversity continue to teach children the values found in the Scout Oath and Law.

Hooray for men and women with the courage to stand up for what they believe!

Hooray for Scouts everywhere that live the Scout Oath and Law on a daily basis!

Hooray for the thousands of businesses, United Way Agencies, American Legions, Lion Clubs, Churches, and schools that choose to support an organization second to none in character development for youth!

Hooray for elected officials everywhere that listen to the people and are fighting for Scouting!

Hooray for the Supreme Court of the United States of America that reinforced every Americans constitutional right to freely associate with whomever they choose!

Hooray for all that still believe that there are moral absolutes!

As a good friend of mine once said Hooray for heroes!

1. Im not sure exactly what ownership entails. Maybe the BSA needs to look at its association with the chartering partner. The association that I have been familiar with, from personal experience, does not seem to mandate a subscription of principles from the unit to the chartering partner.

2. Employment law is a separate issue. I dont believe the BSA is asking the chartering partner to adopt its policies or beliefs in how it practices business. Many organizations and businesses partner with one another, but dont rewrite their bi-laws to fit those of their partner because of it. I dont think anyone is asking anyone else to sacrifice beliefs or adopt new beliefs. Simple administration of another groups policy does not mean that one necessary subscribes to those principles personally or professionally in their own activities.

3. Absolutely not. I said that you are trying to compare what God (or nature if you wish) has given us to the way people choose to live their life and that any individual with an active thought process can determine the difference. I am very familiar with history. I am also familiar with past and current law, congressional mandates, presidential precedents, public sentiment, legal proceedings, and political activist groups that seem to be making it their mission to degrade the value system in America.

Im not sure we are in agreement with what the role of the chartering partner is. In Scouting they do not run the unit. They help with securing a meeting place, approving leaders, etc. The charter partner, at least from my experience is not involved intimately with the Scouting program.

I believe that you are now comparing inherent traits with moral choice. I dont believe anyone is going to argue that how God (or nature if you wish) made an individual is comparable to how they choose to live their life. For that reason, I believe that an individual school district or the people would obviously see a flaw in the merit of a whites only group. Further, I believe that they would see no benefit of such a group to their school.

I have faith in the people, our laws, our government and In God We Trust.

I'm not sure that you are understanding my point either. I am proclaiming that public schools are just that, the publics schools and that any group should be able to ask for support, guidance, admittance, refuge, or other means of assistance. It is at the publics discretion whether or not to support any individual cause based on that groups merits.

I have no problem with any group requesting a public school charter. Whether it is granted should be left to the people.

Why do you decree that this would be best handled in the courts? Would it not be better to determine the will of the people that pay for the services that would be rendered?

Dear Sir,

Religious freedom is the right to practice or not to practice religion without being persecuted. At no time are your rights taken away by allowing someone else to practice their religious freedom. You seem to conclude that by allowing, acknowledging, sponsoring, or assisting someone to practice openly and freely, it somehow takes away your rights. Certain activists have taken the Constitution and tried to make it fit their needs. Amendment 1 was not written to stifle people. It was meant to allow individuals the right to exercise their beliefs freely and openly with whomever they choose. And given that we are a nation of law, governed by the people, we have the right to exercise our beliefs through the ballot box and make new laws as we see fit.

Once again, I further reemphasize that every American can petition their government for sponsorship, help, assistance or other needs at any time. Whether they are granted such assistance is up to the people.

Using your logic, it should have to follow then that all tax-paying citizens having personal beliefs that are not allowed to meet, associate, request funds, or require government assistance, should then be excluded from paying most taxes. Then, We The People can build new buildings with Our money and sponsor organizations that We want to which is Our right as a People in the first place.

Every day Americans pay for programs that they have no clue about and many times may be in moral disagreement with. However, public programs are very much a part of our government and everyday life. Because the government assists a program does not mean that it inherits that organizations bi-laws, practices or beliefs.

On a side note: the ACLU isnt interested in promoting freedom or liberty. Instead, its interested in promoting its political agenda, through funds from activist groups that are trying to impose their belief system on others. Additionally, they are trying to suppress anyone that has views different than their own, by eliminating them from the publics eye. They do this by court case after court case trying to persuade one state to the next until they find a judge liberal enough to side with them. Their only argument is that the mere existence of such organizations takes away their rights. What about the rights of the millions of Americans that do believe in God and that do believe in traditional family values? What about their rights? What about their freedoms?

Dear Sir,

Im not sure what attitude you believe I am exhibiting, however, since you feel a need to peruse the law might I remind you of a few things.

1. First and foremost, I am NOT talking about voting anyones civil rights away. You and others have equal rights as granted by the Constitution. The BSA is not currently nor ever has tried to take anyones rights away. How can you conclude that public approval of the BSA would take anyones rights away?

2. The anti-discrimination policies that have been referred to ARE adopted by local individual school districts. This is very much a local issue.

3. Amendment 10 to the US Constitution does empower the states or the people to all other powers not specifically delegated to the United States by the Constitution. In other words, the Constitution guarantees that the people do have the power to establish additional laws.

4. There are no federal laws regulating the question of school chartering, because simple chartering or the recognition of an organization is not discrimination. If you are referring to disallowing gays or homosexuals, that is the BSA's policy, but not necessarily the school districts policy. Simple administration of another groups policy does not mandate the adoption of that policy by the parent group. I would further argue (off the topic) that many of the locally adopted school district policies pose a greater constitutionality question, because many of them specifically endorse special treatment to specific groups or individuals.

5. Part of your argument seems to be that endorsement of one group is discrimination against other groups. I would argue that any group has the right to public endorsement and sponsorship. In a democracy it is up to the people to decide their laws and public policy. Once again, remember that the laws are the peoples laws, the government is the peoples government, and the buildings are the peoples buildings.

6. Amendment 10 also provides that the education system is to be legislated by the states. It seems to me that the states could even recognize the BSA as their official character development education program.

7. Because of its service to America, in times of war, peace and depression, the United States Congress officially chartered the Boy Scouts of America. This charter in fact recognizes the legitimacy of the organization through the same law establishing body that provided Amendment 1 to the US Constitution- the freedom to associate, speak, and hold meetings.

To further illustrate my original argument. Suppose a town consisted of 100% tax- paying atheists that vote and assemble. Would it not be that towns right to establish groups and fund atheist youth groups if they so choose? What if only 51% of the town was atheist? The answer I believe should still be yes. It is the peoples government.

No civil rights are being taken away by any governmental endorsement or sponsorship of the Boy Scouts of America. You and other groups have the right to ask for the same treatment. Whether you are granted such endorsement or sponsorship should, according to the rules of democracy, be left to the majority and in the United Sates be the will of the people.

Man, I never would have imagined that this thread would have been as interesting as you guys made it! Way to go!

I sat there saying, yeah, uh-huh, right-on bro! And then, hmmm, well, Im not so sure. One thing is for sure though, I always have an opinion

I dont let Scouts bring their personal tents, because I dont want to be responsible for damages. It appears we have the same tents that Uncle Bob has. I bought 20 2-person tents from the Sports Authority for $40 each. Each patrol is assigned 3-4 tents and they have to use them for about 5 years. Thats right, we get 20 tents every 4-5 years for about $800. Thats about $200 a year. The only up-keep is buying about 50 stakes every year. I think we should invest in a metal detector instead

Like previously stated. Buy the tents that are right for you. A 4-season tent is gonna cost a lot more than $40. Do the zipper test in the store. Pretend you are a Scout in a hurry to get to the latrine in the middle of the night and see if it jams. If it does, keep on shopping!

Good luck.

PS- does anyone know of a good source for cheap tent pegs/stakes in large quantities?

Well, if my district mandated that my Scouts couldn't wear camo, I think I might get a good laugh and then wonder if their time might be better spent on something a little more productive. Maybe my time would be better spent staying away from the district as well. This is definitely a topic for the "Give me Break" column.

Samoset Council, Central and Northern Wisconsin

Troops are chartered mostly with civic clubs and churches, cub packs have a higher rate with schools.

No problems up here. There have been a few letters to the editor, but I responded politely and since then- nothing. You can read the open letter and my response here: http://www.troop200.com/stevens_point_journal.htm

We are pretty much without a major issue. But then I like it that way, it leaves more time for planning the next outing and Scouting