cjmiam

I think individual Scout accounts are much different than the troop's general operating account. It is much like a checking account just for Scouting stuff. I don't know the details, but my guess is that the troop already took a percentage or tax if you will or else they might conduct special troop fundraiser on the side. Many Scouts (at least in my troop) are motivated by the fact that they get back what they put into it. If they hit the neighborhood hard with popcorn they can make up to $200, others make about $10. Something just doesn't sit right when I hear that a Scout gets taken for a ride after years of hard work. The kid isn't asking to take a part of the troop with him, but instead that which he earned.

What about "throwing them in the most mosquito infested, slimy, latrine-connected swamp imaginable"? lol...

The kid earned it- the kid deserves to spend it in Scouting no matter what troop he decides to join. Im not for badmouthing people or causing undue shame to Scouting, but in some cases it isnt badmouthing- its called speaking the truth and it isnt undue shame, its deserved shame. This isnt about throwing a temper tantrum, this is about seeing justice done. Any Scouter or troop that keeps a Scouts money when they know that he is has earned it fairly and is continuing on in Scouting, should be thrown in the most mosquito infested, slimy, latrine-connected swamp imaginable and then sued.

What kind of message do we send our boys when the adults play nasty?

Give me a break! What kind of message do we send them when they work their butts off to pay their own way as our program teaches them, just to have some adult take it away? Some people are disgusting and they deserve a trial by their peers to have that title officially bestowed upon them. Whether they hide behind a Scout uniform or not!

Since these people have not produced a set of bylaws and you received no documentation stating such policies, my guess is that the rules have only been spoken. If that's the case, your situation should be addressed in part with past precedent. Further, I have a very difficult time believing that a number of responsible adults would not recognize your issues as legitimate. I agree with Bob, but will take it a step further. If you do not reach a resolution with the troop committee that is favorable to you, contact your attorney or else file a claim in small claims court. This is not a joke, $500 is a lot of money and your son has been defrauded.

cjmiam

Well, then I'd tell the Scoutmaster that you want a check made payable to your local council to be used for summer camp and camping merchandise at the Scout Shop. Usually those are items that troops recognize as allowable purchases with fundraising money by Scouts. Whatever is leftover can remain in your new troop account at the office and credited to your son's new account. Don't give up $500 IS alot of money.

Well Im happy you all like my singing. I think I know about 100 or so camp songs by heart. Thats what 10 years on staff will do to ya (well, when we had extra time on our hands at least I always found it funny- Scouts would come to camp and at first most of the new to camp kids wouldnt sing. It was only after they realized that everyone else was singing that they too joined in.

My Scouts sing only when I lead them. None of them break out in song if you will I think its too bad too. Some very memorable times are through song. Tips on getting kids to sing??? Yeah, learn some fun repeat after me songs. Most of them dont require much musical ability- just memorization. Then, when youre hiking, trying to get a fire lit, during a campfire, in the car, in the latrine, just break out in song. If its fun, and something that doesnt require a lot of skill theyll join in. Heres a trick, when youre at a camp with other troops and sitting around your campfire, tell them you want them to sing so loud that every single troop will hear them. I guarantee that will be a challenge theyll want to live up to!

Far Away??? I bet you mean Yellow Ribbon.

Well, thats too is a repeat after me song. Im going to sing the unedited version. You all sing with me now.

In her hair she wore a yellow ribbon repeat

She wore it in the springtime and in the month of May repeat

And if you asked her why the heck she wore it repeat

She wore it for that GI that was far far away repeat

Far away repeat

Far away repeat

All She wore it for that GI that far far away"

Around the block she pushed the baby carriage repeat

She pushed it in the springtime and in the month of May repeat

And if you asked her why the heck she pushed it repeat

She pushed it for that GI that was far far away

Far away repeat

Far away repeat

All She pushed it for that GI that was far far away

Behind the door her daddy kept a shotgun repeat

He kept it in the springtime and in the month of May repeat

And if you asked him why the heck he kept it repeat

He kept it for that GI that was far far away repeat

Far away repeat

Far away repeat

All He kept it for that GI that was far far away

Animatedly, cjmiam

I'd love to jump in a lake, but with my low body fat, I'd hit the hypothermia stage before my behind would smack the ice. Would an indoor pool be a comparable substitute? I don't want to change any requirements! How `bout instead we just sing?

This is a repeat after me song.

"The other day" repeat

"I met a bear" repeat

"Out in the woods" repeat

"Oh way out there" repeat

Animatedly, cjmiam

Exactly! And bump to that CubsRgr8. For all others, might I refer you to shoppingclubs.com. This is a place where you can find membership in a great deal of other organizations that dont care about morals, decency, and family values. As you can see, Scouting holds these values dear. We like what we believe and we stand firm in our commitment to upholding our right to believe in what we believe. Furthermore we wholeheartedly believe it is cool to teach children that having a mom and dad is the ideal way to go. So let us sing

While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,

Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,

Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,

As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God Bless America,

Land that I love.

Stand beside her, and guide her

Thru the night with a light from above.

From the mountains, to the prairies,

To the oceans, white with foam

God bless America, My home sweet home.

Animatedly, cjmiam

The crossover rate is has always been extremely low. I think the national average is around 25% or so. I too haven't received any Scouts from our pack for 3 or 4 years. All of my new recruits come from Scouts asking friends at school. A lot of the x-Cub Scouts say they don't want to join the troop because Cub Scouts was boring. With leaders like the one you talk about, I can see why. I think Cub Scouts also burns the parents out. I believe that after six years (if they started as a Tiger) of running to meetings that they need a break.

We are up to about 45 Scouts in our troop. My personal opinion is to tell you DE to get the Cub master out of there. However, I also strongly recommend doing some heavy marketing through kids at school. Do a cool event and invite kids to it to just try Scouting. Make sure it's free and make sure it's fun! If you don't have 11 or 12 year olds that can help you market, go to the school and get an address list and send every single kid in grades 6-7 or 5-8 a personal invitation! Yes, it will cost a couple hundred bucks, but if you are serious about recruiting you need to invest some money in marketing. Then once you have a few kids coming, go buy a dirt bike and have a recruiting contest. Whoever gets the most kids to join in the next 4-6 months gets the bike. Or if you have a lot of extra cash, make it a Playstation 2. Im not sure about recruitment incentives, but it certainly works for me. It speaks a language that the kids understand.

You're gonna have to wait a while with the pack even if the DE gets them working again, so I wouldn't count on them for providing you with Scouts. You already said you have a good program, so I assume that once you get kids they will stay.

It's partly for reasons like this that I tell parents not to put their kids in Cub Scouting. I know it's sad, but I get real frustrated when I learn that a kid doesnt join my troop because of a poor experience in Cub Scouting. Thats not how this game is supposed to work!

None

hmmmm... while things have quieted down, I think I'll sing. This is my favorite verse. Sing along with me now

Our fathers' God, to thee,

author of liberty,

to thee we sing;

long may our land be bright

with freedom's holy light;

protect us by thy might,

great God, our King.

Animatedly, cjmiam

"Now go do the right thing"

Dr. Laura

Tjhammer:

You state, cjmiam, haven't we already covered this? You are essentially suggesting that the only real reason people join Scouting is because Scouting bans gays. That's silly.

I believe we discussed it, but I dont think you understand.

The BSA is not your local shopping club.

The BSA is a values based program.

The BSA has membership standards.

The BSA is a private organization.

The reason the BSA is successful is because it is the most complete character education program available in the world.

People apply for membership in the BSA, because of everything it represents which includes traditional family values.

Its because of people like you that we have the so many government regulations and red tape. Everything has to be spelled out letter for letter. Again, back to what the meaning of the word is is. If you cant accept the fact that the BSA doesn't allow gays, maybe it is because a Scout is kind and not in your face. If the BSA never drew attention to the fact that they didnt allow gays, maybe it was because we state what we do believe instead of condemning and attacking others. For instance we believe in traditional family values. I've noticed that you have trouble with definitions, so let me know if I need to explain what that means.

We simply state what we believe and you and others wont accept that. Well, Im sorry, but we have the right to believe what we want. We are living in America after all. And if you havent heard yet, we have the ability to freely associate with whomever we darn well choose. I choose the BSA the way it is, has been, and always will be.

Now, lets sing

Let music swell the breeze,

and ring from all the trees

sweet freedom's song;

let mortal tongues awake,

let all that breathe partake,

let rocks their silence break,

the sound prolong.

Animatedly, cjmiam

Now go do the right thing Dr. Laura

Tjhammer:

You stated, I disagree. I believe the only way the policy will change is if the 900,000 adult leaders and 3.2 million parents of the organization realize exactly what the policy is and that they have an opportunity to affect change if they so desire.

We do know what the policy is and we like it that way. Thats why we support our program. Thats why we continue to enroll our kids in the program. Thats why our communities and other organizations overwhelmingly continue to support us. Dont you get it? We choose to stand by the BSA as it currently is. We dont want it changed!

You stated, We can't. The BSA corporation has a monopoly protected by the US Congress to operate the program of the worldwide Scouting Movement within the USA.

Come on! So start something else, rename it something else. I was trying to help you all come up with a name, but all I could come up with was Gay Guys that Like to Camp with Boys Organization of America or something like that

Here, maybe if I sing some more it will help you think

My native country, thee,

land of the noble free,

thy name I love;

I love thy rocks and rills,

thy woods and templed hills;

my heart with rapture thrills

like that above.

Now, go do the right thing.

Dr. Laura

Animatedly, cjmiam

Mmmm, lets read that again.

Whatever feeble attempt you tried to make for an argument has already been done before, so Im not even going to read that. Ill just refer you to all my other posts.

Instead Im going to sing

My country, 'tis of thee,

sweet land of liberty,

of thee I sing;

land where my fathers died,

land of the pilgrim's pride,

from every mountainside

let freedom ring.

There, that should give you the motivation to go and start your own organization. Im sure youll have hundreds of parents and Scouts knocking on your door to join.

Animatedly, cjmiam

Dittos DD!

Tjhammer: You have finally acknowledged my question about starting your own organization. Good for you, but you really didnt answer the question. You claim that starting your own organization isnt a realistic option. Why isn't it a realistic option? I guess Ill have to answer the question for you.

Because:

1. You know that if given a choice most kids will choose the BSA.

2. You know that if given a choice most parents will choose the BSA.

3. You know that if given a choice most communities and organizations will choose the BSA.

4. You know that you wont be able to get enough community support or funding.

5. You know that liability insurance will be extremely high.

6. And actually you dont really want your own organization; your real mission is to change the values and beliefs of others.

nor is it fair to tell the people who have spent years building this organization and now disagree with cjmiam and others to (take a hike)".

Excuse me?!? Now you are trying to say that its not fair to you and those that dont agree with the current policies. Pardon me, but tough luck! How is changing what millions have prescribed to and held dear for 92 years fair for them? Using our country as an example, say some people want the US to become a dictatorship or would rather have a communistic society. If our government doesnt agree to change, that means it not fair to those that disagree? Do I really need to remind you that we live in America? Furthermore, far more people put love, guts, sweat, and tears into this organization that believe in its traditional family values, than those that dont.

I strongly agree that anyone deliberately ignoring a BSA policy is not an example of a good Scout or Scouter. What a great example they are teaching- we dont need to abide by the policy, because we dont agree with it and well sue them if they try to make us. Yep, thats what I want my Scouts to learn.

If you dont agree with it- LEAVE! Dont however disgrace or degrade the organization that many Scouts and Scouters believe in.

Many of you continue not getting it. This policy is not open for your interpretation. As if our courts, lawmakers and executive body could not have made it clearer This is what we believe, this is what we have a right to believe, and this is what we continue to believe. Just what dont you understand? Maybe some of you are still confused with what the meaning of is is And once again I ask, why dont you start your own organization? Leave mine alone!

I'm just saying that I believe the blame lies on the parents. It isn't sctmom's responsibility to do something. I have no clue what their rules are or who signed the kid up for the program, but my guess is that there is an adult that should have been more responsible than the kid to make sure this didn't happen. I personally think it would hurt the kid more to take him out of this mostly for fun and skill development program. Instead, I would give his so-called parents a piece of my mind. This is almost as bad as the so-called fathers that build the pinewood derby cars for their kids! Some parents really know how to teach their kids well.

You insult me and my religion and you don't think I will be angry? I am more than willing to turn the other cheek. Would you like to hit me again? Notice I have not attacked you or your beliefs. Like I said- your true colors have shown through...

le Voyageur: your true colors now show through. you have attacked me, my religion, and my God. you have used words of hate and terror. you have accused my ancestors of inherent evil because of their religion. and you have the nerve to claim you are the victim. whatever hate dwells within your soul does not dwell in my brothers and sisters in Christ. yes, indeed your true colors now show through.

Welcome aboard YoungBlood!

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Congratulations on your Eagle!

At this point I'd ask myself what good can be gained for that child. Even though his parents may have done it deliberately, you already did more than your part by e-mailing the appropriate people a while back. The season is coming to an end within a couple weeks if you are on the same schedule we are. I think the Monday after that last tournament I'd talk with someone, but not through e-mail. Sounds to me like his parents need a little lesson on fairness. I don't think it would be best for the boy to remove him at this stage in the game.

I see nothing wrong with those that disagree starting their own organization. Come on we live a capitalist society. We all know that competition is good- its makes us all better and work harder right? Therefore the Scouts would actually receive an even better program! Then, come joining night at the local school, there can be a table set up for straight Scouts and one for (did you come up with a name yet?). What more could we ask for? Im not trying to be rude, disrespectful or sarcastic. Im being logical, just as I have tried to be in my other posts. I have not argued morality or the meaning of life. I have argued that this is the way it is.

You have continued to question in many ways and forms of reasoning whether we really mean it and for the 10th time, yes. Those that are members of the Boy Scouts of America are obligated to abide by its rules and principles. If they cant there are no other options. Blame whoever you want for what you feel is an injustice. But just remember, we are all very capable of knowing right from wrong and able to make our own decisions. We dont need any others to tell us how to do it better or what we must believe. Many millions like us just the way we are and choose Scouting for what we represent. We are the Boy Scouts of America, not the Boy Scouts of some state or some council. We are a bastion of hope and decency for a great many people. We have not caved to political pressure. We have not bowed in the face of constant attacks and ridicule. We have remained strong and endured. No matter what the few loud voices might try to make the world think, people do believe in us and believe in what we represent.

So in the end, after you have torn apart every piece of my organization that I hold dear and I have nothing left. When I start my new organization and it is successful. When it flourishes throughout every state of our great Union, will you attempt to tear that one down too?

"Now go do the right thing."

Dr. Laura (I give credit to other's work)

Dedicated Dad: You are the greatest! I'd love to buy you lunch, but the travel expenses probably aren't in the budget.

tjhammer:

You stated, The trap you try to lay is a great case in point: youve provided no evidence that the 900,000 adult volunteers or 3.2 million boys and their parents have come together in common ground against homosexuality.

The burden of proof isnt ours. You are the accuser. You are the one making the accusations that millions of respectable young men and their parents had no clue what kind of organization they were joining. You are the one making a case that they and I just dont know any better- that we dont know the values of our own organization. Excuse me, but on behalf of all of those that joined Scouting because of its principles, you are wrong. We know what we believe and we know what morality is. You can sit here all day and dissect sentences, word meaning, word choice, and personal traits. The statement you made against homosexuality. obviously isnt even worth addressing because Scouts respect all of Gods creation. Just because we dont accept homosexuals as members doesnt mean we teach our Scouts that homosexuals are bad people. In fact we are an organization that promotes respect to all people, of all countries and of all walks of life.

Our congressional delegates have reaffirmed their support of the values we represent. Our highest elected officials have reaffirmed what Scouting stands for so that there are no questions to our beliefs. And the supreme court of our land ruled that that we have these rights. And somehow it is still unclear? Somehow, all of our members dont know what they believe? Somehow we dont know what is best for ourselves?

The burden of proof isnt ours dear sir. The Boy Scouts of America has captured the hearts of millions of Americans. Most of them find the term Scout synonymous to being a good person. The leaders of our county, writers of our movies, and pastors of our churches have equated the term Scout with the ideal citizen.

Yes indeed the burden of proof is yours. You must prove that we are all wrong and joined an organization that we dont know what it stands for. You must prove that we really didnt know what we were getting into- that we were misguided. You must prove that all of our millions were just a bunch of ignorant people without an ability to determine right from wrong.

We dont need to justify our actions except to God. And so once again I must ask the question that if the Boy Scouts of America is not your idea of what is the best type of organization for our youth, then why dont you start one of your own and show us how its done? Why must you insist on changing my organization, what I believe, and what I hold dear? Why do you insist on trying to resurrect dead people and presume what their intensions were when living people with the authority to speak on our organizations behalf already have? What is so unclear about our organizations statement with regard to this matter?

Do you mean to tell me that I've been wasting my time arguing with a guy that is stealing other peoples words? For crying out loud! It seems you were able to use quotes elsewhere in your posts. Give me a break.

You guys still don't get it and it appears as though you never will. Even if the BSA takes away everything it was founded on. Gets rid of everything it holds dear and starts from scratch, they can still make up any rules they want to. Either agree to them or don't. So if I go start an organization youre gonna join and tell me how to run it? Give me another break.

Just because you put time into an organization or are a member of an organization doesnt give you the right to ignore or change that organizations bylaws. The BSA has reaffirmed what they have stated all along. Yet it continues to fall on people with fingers in their ears. Weve stated what we believe now take it or leave it- all or nothing baby. And once again, if it's so meaningful to you, I see no reason why you can't go start the Gay Scouts of America. You could do everything that we do, but allow people to be gay while doing it. After all this is America!

Tjhammer: only you yourself can truly know your sincerity of purpose. I do not propose to speculate on what your intensions are. However, throughout its 92-year history, the Boy Scouts of America has stood steadfast upon the principles to which it was founded. I care little to speculate what Lord Baden Powell meant in his hours of death. He was never a member of the Boy Scouts of America and his words are moot at any point.

What isnt arguable is what the Founders intended the Boy Scouts of America to be. From our First Handbook Handbook for Boys, it is clear throughout what the principles of our organization are. On Patriotism and Citizenship Theordore Roosevelt writes, If he (the Scout) doesnt treat his mother and sisters well, then he is a poor creature no matter what else he does; just as a man who doesnt treat his wife well is a poor kind of citizen no matter what his other qualities might be. This is a book about Scoutcraft, Campcraft, and Chivalry. This is a book about politeness, personal sacrifice, and the Ten Commandments. This is a book spells out word for word what it means to be a man. And oh no, Im not just saying that. This book clearly tells a boy how he is to become a man. And if more men would use this book to guide their lives, our world would be a far better place.

It is not for you or me to judge what from this book or our current book we are going to follow. As members of the Boy Scouts of America, we are obligated to adhere to and enforce the policies set forth by the National Executive Board. We have chosen this membership on our own free will and we are also able to leave on our own free will. However, many millions have chosen this program specifically for what it represents and for the values they hold dear.

If people are so awfully disgusted with a single aspect of this program, they are all provided the rights afforded to them by the Constitution of the United States of America to start an organization of their own. The Boy Scouts of America is a package deal. It was founded on Godly principles with traditional family values. Many men have sacrificed their lives so that I can be a part of an organization of my choosing, associate with people that I so choose to associate with, and to believe what I want to believe. Well, I choose Scouting the way it was, the way it is, and the way it was always meant to be.