cjmiam

So if then what? The basic founding principles of our program have not changed since its inception here in the United States. Unfortunately some in society are trying to rewrite policies based on what is more convenient or fits with their personal beliefs at the current time. So then its all-open for interpretation? Its what ever we feel like on any given day? Then there really are no moral absolutes, because whatever the next day might throw at us may demand changing our belief system or way of living? The next time a Scout breaks the Scout Law it is open for interpretation on what he really meant by breaking it? Was it because of a poor upbringing? Did he receive a bad score on a test in school? Well, maybe he was justified then for kicking that poor old lady. After all its not his fault, hes a product of society. He wasnt sure what the meaning of kick was. He had no control over his actions. And since no one really knows what is right or wrong actions no longer have consequences. Thats fine Scout, kick her again

What baffles me the greatest is why someone doesnt start the Gay Scouts? Of course youd need to find a different name then Scouts, because I believe that is already taken. Lets see if I can help you come up with a name. Maybe that is whats been holding all of you back. Anyone is welcome to chime in if they like. Wait, Ive got one- Gay Boys that Might Want to Go Camping With Gay Leaders Association of America GBTMWGCWGLAA. Hmmm gonna be hard to fit that on a patch. If there is so much outpouring support for this type of organization why hasnt someone started it? Or have they? Hmmm I havent heard of it, maybe that explains how successful it is. Hi sir, Im raising money for my Gay Boy Scout Troop that Goes Camping with Gay Leaders Association Troop Number 3223. Would you like to buy a candy bar?

Please, I hesitated using that example for just this reason. I only used it because it provided a way to show that large numbers don't necessarily equate to what is correct or the right way of doing things. I didnt mean it to bee seen as a comparison for morality.

Well, nonetheless, they get my vote! Hooray for Heroes! I remember a bunch of southern states that once wanted to have slaves. Guess history tells the story of what happened with that one Just because some people think differently (even if they are large in numbers) doesnt make it right.

I agree with everyone for the most part up `til le Voyageur. Some people and groups are unfortunately trying to rewrite history and wash God out of our lives and if they had their way the entire world. There is absolutely no question what our forefathers intended- a freedom of religion, not from religion. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and just about everything that has been signed, attested to, or proclaimed has been done with Gods grace in the respective year of our Lord.

As far as Scouting, yes, the founding principles of the Boy Scouts of America have always recognized God as being a major part of our lives. The Handbook For Boys (our first Scout Handbook) states, No scout can ever hope to amount to much until he has learned a reverence for religion. The scout should believe in God and Gods word. It further states The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing his obligation to God No matter what the boy may be- Catholic, or Protestant, or Jew- this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before him.

I think all these things clearly show what our founders intended.

And one more thing. Have you even read their board? It's obvious that they think I'm a liberal and gay. Which is absolutely absurd. And for all those that have known me here on these boards know that I'm exactly the opposite. It is indeed sad that when someone attempts to be trustworthy and honest that he is riduculed and called names.

Erizona:

No, I'm not accusing everyone that voted as being a liar. Thats absolutely absurd. What I am pointing out is that posting this type of pole on a single-sided political action site will obviously skew the results. I would really like to think that all those voting from freerepublic were all actually Scouts or Scouters, but my better judgment tells me thats unlikely.

If the individual was looking for a higher number of respondents as he so stated, then the best scientific and accurate method would be to post it on all political action sites, not just ones that fit with his beliefs. The individual posted it on a Conservative News Forum under the title Freep this poll on Gays vs BSA. That is not what I would consider inviting accurate polling results. Needless to say that is not even what this poll is about!

Im a Dittohead, but I am not going to stand around and watch a bunch of activists try to influence my organization. Thats what they are doing as though we dont have the ability to think on our own. Weve been here for 92 years for a reason.

Dear tjhammer:

No, you are wrong. We dont accept all kids. We dont accept kids that dont agree to abide by the Scout Oath & Law. In other words, if a Scout refuses to be trustworthy, kind, obedient etc., I as a Scoutmaster have every right to send him hiking. And while I can try to change them, there is a point when I have to look out for the wellbeing of my other Scouts. A self-professing shoplifter has no place in my troop. Im sorry, but we do have higher standards. In fact we have many standards for membership. I cant wait `til the Shoplifters Association of America takes us to court for discrimination I guess everyone has his or her opinion on whats morally correct. However, we that chose to be members of the Boy Scouts of America must also subscribe to its principles. If thats not something that a leader can agree to, then they are very much welcome to start his or her own organization. After all, this IS America! However, ignoring all or part of the Scout Oath or Law is NOT an option.

Khepera:

Its not that we arent seeking the support of outside organizations or people.

Further, its not that we want to keep the poll small.

You have absolutely missed the point of this poll.

It was to find out what CURRENT REGISTERED MEMBERS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA THINK.

There was no ulterior motive.

Those who do not want outside influences are really saying we only want to hear ourselves and not others because we are selfish and want what we want.

Excuse me, but did you not read the question? How many of you would leave the program? In other words it is rather obvious that you would have to be in the program to leave it And it certainly isnt being selfish to only ask for the opinion of your fellow members. It is being purposeful. Why would it matter what non-members say when they are not the ones that would be leaving the program? You corrupted the data sample and you are trying to justify it by calling anyone that doesnt want more people joining this poll a liberal.

By inviting others to participate in your poll you are not being dishonest but in keeping the poll to a small select group you will soon convince yourselves that dropping morals is the right thing to do.

You have concluded that because I want accurate numbers that I think dropping the morals of the Scouting program is the right thing to do? Ya know, you really need to take a logical reasoning course. If you cant understand that this poll was specifically designed for members of the Boy Scouts of America, inherent by the mere wording of the question, I dont think there is any more point in arguing.

Please also let me add that even though I said that I would leave the program, I DO NOT consider that a win for Scouting. Our leaders are the most dedicated, caring, and well-trained citizens that our youth could ever interact with. I did note that while I would leave the BSA I would still continue to provide the same type of program that I have offered through the BSA. "To instill values in young people and help them make ethical choices over their lifetime." The values of which are of course found in the Oath and Law.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Dear Khepera:

I am an honest person. I try to always be Scoutlike. I have posted many times on these boards and before you start making accusations I strongly recommend that you find out more about me. I am not afraid of any results, because I am confident in the Scouting program. I am confident in America. You also seemed to forget that I voted the same way you voted. Just what is it I want for the Boy Scouts? Sir if you had any clue what my experiences have been, you would not be questioning what I hope for in the Scouting program.

All that set aside. You deliberately made a concerted effort to skew the results of this poll. Having a degree in communication, I am very familiar with what corrupts polling data. And you have corrupted it. Shear numbers have nothing to do with accuracy. However, your sample demographics have everything to do with it. Let me illustrate more clearly.

Dear Democratic Party: We want to know who should be president of the United States. Because you are such a large group we thought you would be an excellent group to ask. Please let us know your response ASAP so we can swear her in. Thank you

In essence that is what you did when you posted this survey on FreeRepublic. You asked a specific group that you knew would answer the way you wanted them to. That was not what we hoped for in this poll. I think we all know what certain political groups believe. I am a conservative, highly in favor of any group promoting family values and I listen to Rush every day. Hes down at the Pro Bowl- lucky guy. However, I am also very concerned about people trying to influence public opinion in a deceitful way.

My comments about Janet Reno were meant as a joke. I often add humor to my postings.

I thank you and all the folks that support our program so strongly. However, please remember that the core foundations of our program include honesty and integrity. We dont want to win by cheating.

Well, that explains it. Now it begs the question- How many people voting are actually in the Boy Scouts? That was the point of this wasn't it?

"What reason is there to have a poll if your not promoting an agenda?"

Ummmm, maybe to get people's opinion... I am a strong supporter of the BSA, traditional family values and everything that Scouting stands for. This also includes fair play. Posting this on a conservative political action site in my opinion is not fair play and is not why I believe OldGreyEagle put this poll here. I believe it was to gain the opinion of Scouters. I think we all know where the visitor's of Free Republic stand on this, maybe we should get it posted on the ACLU's site to see where their visitors stand.

Give me a break.

Khepera:

"I have more faith in our scouts than to accuse them of cheating without knowing for sure that is the case. I believe they understand and honor the scout code."

Scouts and Scouters aren't the only ones posting on these boards. Many people come here just to attempt to advance their own agendas. But let's look at the logic and probability shall we? OldGreEagle posted at 5:00 PM and attained a total of 19 votes by 12:12 AM (prime Web hours when people are usually awake). Then between 12:12 AM and 12:47 AM the vote suddenly changed it's 1:3 ratio in favor of Staying in the Boy Scouts (via 19 votes) to a 10:1 not in favor (via 230 votes) when most people are asleep?

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona that I'd like to sell to anyone that buys those stats. Let's see what Janet Reno has to say about all this!

I'm never wrong.

OldGreyEagle: When I posted my response the "no" vote was at 4 and I think I made 5. Unfortunately someone in the last hour has not honored your request to be on their "Scouts Honor". It's too bad too, because I thought it was a neat poll... Maybe the moderator can track down their IP and send them hiking. I hear there are some wonderful trails in Antarctica.

I would most likely step out of Scouting or at least the BSA's program. However, I wouldn't stop providing the program to the kids. What would that mean? Probably a lot more fundraisers so we could buy our own liability insurance and a new name. Maybe something like "The Morally Straight Boy Scouts of America that Believe in God and Traditional Family Values". That way no one would mistake my organization for their local shopping club.

Sorry, I should have qualified my statement. Please allow me to rephrase. Given my experiences as a participant in each organization, in my town Scouting was more exciting and I conclude that the reason for this is because the government sponsors 4-H. However, other clubs in other towns may not be as bad as my town was. And in no way should this statement discourage you or you kids from trying 4-H, because they might actually have fun and learn something.

SCOUTER-Terry:

I too want to thank you for providing this service to Scouting. I can't imagine the time you spend keeping this site working and looking good. I think "most" of my posts have been in good taste, but thank you for reminding us of the purpose.

Keep up the great work!

So that's why 4-H was such a drag!

And I still would rather be camping!

I guess Im not speaking what I mean. My only point is that most chartering organizations dont appear too interested in what we actually do. Whether they should or shouldnt isnt my point. The lucky ones have members in both the chartering org and the troop. But until recently ours didnt. Now Im in both. I am trying to help them understand, but most of them just put their trust in me the SM. And Ive got a good feeling that that is the norm across America. Plus, certain groups dont often times want to be Boy Scouts. Most of `em are over 75. Id love to see even one of them come camping with us.

Currently our chartering org doesnt know much about how to run a Scout troop. I learned how through experiences, Wood Badge, and other things. I dont see anyone in the chartering org having a real interest in learning how to run a troop. Given that, yes I would have a problem if they tried telling my boys (that use the patrol method) what theyre going to do or not do. I see enough bureaucracies elsewhere and dont need it from my chartering org. They just dont know Scouting. They are meant to affiliate with so that Scout troops can get some cash on a regular basis or have a place to meet. They dont know anything more about background checks than the checkout girls at the supermarket.

That's why you won't be camping with my troop.

My comment with regard to the chartering org was with reference to the fact that most don't actively involve themselves with the unit. Unless you consider signing a piece of paper and maybe giving some money being actively involved. At least that's how it seems the majority are. It wasn't an argument about having power. And by the way, in my unit the PLC is the most powerful entity. If our chartering org made it their mission to mess with our troop, wed be taking a hike. My original comment was about reality. And talking about reality... Ive come to the realization that some people don't agree with me and checked my conscience and have concluded that I really don't care, because millions like me just the way I am.

Have a lovely day and I'd still rather be camping.

PS, I dont know what I said about the United Way because Ive said several good and not so good things about them. Personally Id rather give my money directly to the organizations that I believe in, rather than having some allocations committee do it.

I'd rather be camping...

and since I'm a bow hunter, after reading the past messages I feel it is my obligation to turn myself in to the authorities. so long all...

I am only posting this reply in order to removed from this thread. But I'm sure that if you all try real hard you can make it go on for another year...

Dan, if it appeared that I was saying following the book was a waste of time, thats not what I meant. What I was trying to point out was that I already did read it in some book and what followed would be paraphrased. In other words I wasnt going to use my time just to get the absolute correct wording. However, since you brought the thought up, in my opinion some people do waste a lot of time and get way to stressed-out over some guidelines.

Dedicated Dad: youre right, I was a bit off track, but as you follow the threads you can see it does digress a bit to some other ideas on why camo is or isnt a problem. I personally dont have a problem with camo, but I think it would be less of an issue if more kids were able to wear the official uniform. In other words, if our uniform met the same durability standards, versatility, and expense of some other types of clothing, kids would wear the uniform rather than something else.

Your son did a fantastic job! The passing rate for Shotgun at our summer camp was less than 50% and that was mostly older kids! It certainly isn't an easy badge. Tell him way to go.